Two Jewish grandmothers are exchanging gossip....
What happened with your grandson, already. Has he found anybody yet ?
Well I've got good news and I've got bad news.
The bad news is he's gay !
The good news is he's met a nice doctor !
I don't think the denomination is as important as the individual
My first m-i-l was an Incompatible Catholic. Until her priest told her she would be committing a mortal sin she not only urged that her son return to the church, but that I convert. She also tried to get the kids baptized in the faith in the church without our knowledge and I'm sure she performed a lay baptism on her own.
Obviously this facet of my first marriage was not made in heaven and I was delighted to divorce her right along with her son.
My d-i-l is a Compatable Catholic. We share ethical standards. She is a joy and a delight and a valuable member of her church as well as my family. After ten years of marriage my son converted to Catholicism adding another layer of complexity to the family WASP/Free Thinker/Mystic core of his being.
Obviously this marriage is made in heaven.
JPB--
Tell your daughter that her fickle swain is far more concerned with the next world than with this one; that their relationship would be very uncomfortable for her because in his mind she is an inferior being because his church says so and because his parents say so.
Right now the abandonment hurts, but down the road she'll be glad that she didn't get tangled with a Blinkered Believer.
umm...smart
if you hate some one that's intolerant, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?
It sounds like this young man did the responsible thing. He was faced with a decision and then communicated (apparently respectfully) to your daughter. Teen-aged breakups are tragic... but we all have gotten over them.
Many religions have rules about who you can marry.
When I was in my religious phase, I was in a fundamentalist Protestant denomination... Dating someone who was not a fundamentalist Protestant Christian was simply out of the question. From the point of view of this community, this proscription made perfect sense.
When I found myself in a position where I know longer wanted to be a part of this religion... I left. This doesn't mean that people who stayed don't have the right to practice this religion.
Now that I am in my non-religious agnostic phase... I see this as a sociological phenomenon.
Different religious groups have different customs and moral standards. Marriage rules have been a key difference between cultures and sub-cultures since people started forming cultures.
If you want to be a part of a religion, then you have to accept the customs and mores. That is what religion is about.
Complaining about the religious rules of other people, when you don't really understand the subculture is unproductive.
Quote:
Living in a very homogeneous culture, we rarely encounter this problem. But I could live with a wife, son-in-law or daughter-in-law of any christian faith - excluding "cults like Jehovah's Witness - and a jew would be okay too - but, admittedly, I would never cease trying to make a baptist out of him/her.
I thought the Baptists were against the homogeneous culture. Weren't they the ones trying to get rid of Tinky Winky?
I'm an aethiest and would be more comfortable with another aethiest, so I guess that's a Yes.
My kids can do, and always have done, whatever they like regarding faiths.
I feel religion should not be taught until the age 0f 21 and that would be the end of religion and all it's problems
Nonsense. What about all the "born agains"? Huh!
jespah, your post about you and RP more or less seeking each other out because you're both jews really struck a chord with me. The man I spoke of on my other post on this thread was a Jew, and it was very important to him that his wife be Jewish too.
For whatever reason, I've always been attracted to Jewish men. Not that I sought them out, but if I met someone that was always a strong factor in my attraction....just, I don't know, the humor, the personality, the looks, the smarts, the whole package.
However, the men I'd dated in the past who were Jews, all of them in fact, at some point mentioned marrying so that their children with be Jewish too. Also too, I'm sure there is, as we you and RP, this feeling of being cut from the same bolt of cloth.
I can respect that, and really to be honest, I admire it. However, it leaves us poor shiksas out in the cold.
Chai wrote:However, the men I'd dated in the past who were Jews, all of them in fact, at some point mentioned marrying so that their children with be Jewish too. Also too, I'm sure there is, as we you and RP, this feeling of being cut from the same bolt of cloth.
I can respect that, and really to be honest, I admire it. However, it leaves us poor shiksas out in the cold.
Why didn't you just convert to Judaism? These Middle Eastern Bronze Age cults all look alike, and their reasonable members don't really believe in most of their teachings anyway. What difference difference does it make
which of those cults you don't really believe in?
I got dumped by a girl because I wasn't a jew. At least that was her excuse.
Chai wrote:jespah, your post about you and RP more or less seeking each other out because you're both jews really struck a chord with me. The man I spoke of on my other post on this thread was a Jew, and it was very important to him that his wife be Jewish too.
For whatever reason, I've always been attracted to Jewish men. Not that I sought them out, but if I met someone that was always a strong factor in my attraction....just, I don't know, the humor, the personality, the looks, the smarts, the whole package.
However, the men I'd dated in the past who were Jews, all of them in fact, at some point mentioned marrying so that their children with be Jewish too. Also too, I'm sure there is, as we you and RP, this feeling of being cut from the same bolt of cloth.
I can respect that, and really to be honest, I admire it. However, it leaves us poor shiksas out in the cold.
Well, I've dated a lot of folks who weren't Jewish, and so did RP before we met. And I had good relationships with some of these men and some I could see being with. And I had dated Jewish guys before, too. So maybe a lot of it was due to other degrees of clicking. It's another thing in common. But I am a bit militant about it. Just a small group, getting smaller. Don't want it to be lost to the ages.
PS In many Reform congregations, the children of a Jewish man (e. g. the mother is not Jewish) can be considered as Jews. So shiksas (
) aren't totally out in the cold.
One thing that I think is unusual with Judaism is that it's really a culture as well as a religion.
My dad is Jewish by culture but isn't religious (he was raised religious and then decided it wasn't for him as a young adult). While he and my mom (who is not at all Jewish) were divorced for many reasons, his current wife is Jewish and they really seem to be a good fit for each other. I don't think their shared culture is the only reason, but I think it's part of it.
Chai wrote: However, it leaves us poor shiksas out in the cold.
There aren't too many shiksas out in the cold! Most of the women wanting to marry a jewish man will convert to Judaism or the guy will convert to the girl's religion and in the end, today many jewish weddings have both a Rabbi and a Minister participating.
You'd be surprised how many Asian-American women or even
Afro-American women convert to Judaism for marriage, so they can be married by a Rabbi. For the children to be recognized as jewish, the conversion ( in this case the woman ) must be carried in a specific manner.
The conversion, to be authentic and recognized by Israel must be an Orthodox conversion, which means about 6 months of study with a Rabbi and a dip in the mikvah.
Thomas wrote:Why didn't you just convert to Judaism? These Middle Eastern Bronze Age cults all look alike, and their reasonable members don't really believe in most of their teachings anyway. What difference difference does it make which of those cults you don't really believe in?
Okay, that had me laughing out loud...!
Well...there are "like" religions and then "n
I think it depends on the type of religion. I do believe that Presbyterians and Episcopalians can make a go of it. I think there are some that would not do as well. And if you are a Christian and dating someone like a Muslim may very well be a problem. And being a Christian I would not want my child dating a Muslim. Not because I think they are inherently evil - though the Koran does encourage them to wipe Christians out - SO I HAVE HEARD...but I really want my kids to stay Christians - it is the fabric of our being - our belief system...and as much as I would like to believe I am open minded and able to handle whatever choices my children make...it is a fact that it would put a wall between me and my kids. So yes...I would encourage them to date more in the "like" category. The same with Agnostic, or Atheist...this would just not bode well for me to keep a good relationship with my children...in the event they married someone so unlike what they grew up believing. Now - if they somehow came to a point where they no longer believed what I had taught them I would just have to learn to live with it and if they were hell bent on marrying someone who was in the "not so much" category...well...I would make the best of it. I will cross that bridge when I get to it.
Two good people who love each other can put their love ahead of their religion. I have seen this work several times-- including with Christians and Muslims.
Mismi, your post makes me sad. I hope that you would support your children if they fell in love with someone who was Muslim. The question is whether your love for you children is stronger than your prejudice.
It is possible that your prejudice is based on the fact that you don't know very much about the Muslim religion-- and maybe as you learn more, you will be able to overcome your prejudice.
You should know that the in the Koran Christians and Jews, as people who all believe in God the creator, are considered "people of the book" (i.e. people of God's word).
This belief that Muslims, Christians and Jews were all fellow worshippers of God was born out in how they treated people of the other faiths.
Until about 70 years ago, Jews were treated much better in Muslim countries than in Christian countried-- the Christian countries forced Jews to convert, many times in the past centuries and there are serveral examples of systematic destruction of Jewish communities (which included many deaths). This was because throughout History, Jews were portrayed in Christian culture as responsible for murdering the son of God (this belief was most famously held by Martin Luther-- the father of the Protestant religion).
In contrast, Jewish and Christian minorities in Muslim countries were usually protected by law. This is because the Koran commands that they be protected.
Of course there are bad examples all around... the points I am making are the general trends. The current brutal violence committed by some Muslims... and the current hatred and calls for war by some Christians are features of politics more than religion.
But that is not my main point.
My main point is that each one of us is responsible for our own hatreds and prejudices. And each one of us can choose to love in spite of our religious or cultural tendancies.
I hope that more people choose love over religion.
Quote:Two good people who love each other can put their love ahead of their religion. I have seen this work several times-- including with Christians and Muslims.
Then they have watered down their beliefs in a major way. We either take what we believe seriously or we don't. I don't have to defend my stance to you sir. You appear to think that marriage is a fairly simple thing and that as long as two people love each other all will be fine. That is a wonderful thing in a perfect world. But this is not...as I am sure you have noticed. My "prejudice" as you call it is not born of hatred of the other person. It is born of the fact that marriage is hard enough. Even when you love each other. Bringing in completely different belief systems and trying to make it with all the other factors that enter into marriage is very hard. I think any parent would try to save their child that heartache. Now if you read down in my post you would have seen that if my child was hell bent on marrying or dating a person...whatever the faith...I would love and support both of them the very best I could. But I cannot just trash what I know to be true as far as my faith is concerned. Some people seem to think that their faith is disposable...mine is not. It is absolutely a part of all I say and do. And though I am not perfect and I absolutely do have prejudices - as I am sure you do as well....since we all do in some capacity...whether we realize it or not...I do try to love the person. Always. Even you - though I can tell you and I will never see eye to eye...on anything. I will still do my best to give you the respect you deserve. I do not need your pity sir...for I know where my heart is and it is strong and stable and does not blow whatever way the wind blows. I love my God...I love my husband and I love my children...I will do whatever I deem best for them - and I will love whoever they choose to marry. I will direct them and guide them the best I can before that time though...that is after all...my job. Grace and peace be to you...
