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Fury over Israeli marriage law

 
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 12:10 am
au1929 wrote:
InfraBlue
When the avowed goal of the people desiring entry and live in Israel is it's destruction what would you expect. In addition it was established as a Jewish homeland and should remain so.


Ever heard of "the Jewish Autonomous Region" in Russia. It was established in 1934 as the national homeland of all Jews. So why make a new homeland (after WW II) if you already got one?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 12:45 am
au1929 wrote:
Frolic
Quote:
Its not like Arabs are born with this dying wish to 'drive those Jews into the sea'. And Israel does all the efforts to stimulate the hate and fear of their arab neigbours.


The Arabs would like nothing better than to drive the Israeli's into the sea. They have tried several times starting with the day Israel was proclaimed a state. A little honesty on your part would be appreciated but frankly unexpected.

Careful with those blanket statements, my friend. I am an Arab (born in Tripoli, Libya)and I have no desire to "drive the Israelis into the sea."
I do think that BOTH sides, Israel and Palestine, are in the wrong, and have gone out of their way to remain in the wrong, since 1967!
However, this marriage law is indefensible. It is racism, plain and simple. It shows that Sharon and his group of thugs are determined to generate more violence in Israel, rather than less strife. The best thing for Israel to do at this point would be to have a "no confidence vote" of the govt, and form a new one.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 01:15 am
The discrimination is not only against Palestinians, but against Israel's own 1.2 million citizens of Palestinian origin as well. The overwhelming majority of Israelis who marry Palestinians are the so-called Israeli Arabs - Palestinians who live in Israel and have Israeli citizenship.

Well, frolic said so already: it has been the similar here in Germany, the so-called "Nuremberg race-laws". (These laws excluded German Jews from Reich citizenship and prohibited them from marrying or having sexual relations with persons of "German or related blood".)
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 05:02 am
"Why make a new homeland (after WW II) if you already got one?"

Oh man...you've got to be kidding...Jews, Christians and Muslims alike claim that scrap of desert as holy land. Muslim Arabs already controlled 98% of the land in the area, Christians already had Rome and the Vatican, and why should anyone be forced to live in Russia? All the Jews should go back to Russia I suppose, according to the reasoning in that statement....check your history of the Jewish experience in Russia, you might get it then. Incidentally, most Jews in the world do not live in Israel, nor do they have any desire to. I am just trying to state that biblical prophecy lead to goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel, and there is no reasoning against anything that it is a matter of faith. Why the UN agreed to sanction the state of Israel was an issue of guilt and politics. I'll say it again, blame the current government in Israel, don't blame the Jews. Why don't we just stick to the discussion of Israel, their policies, and the claims of the Palestinians, and avoid unspecific terms like Jews and Arabs, yes? Sounds too much like 'Cowboys and Indians'...
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Mamahani
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 05:23 am
New Law Raises Obstacles to Israeli-Palestinian Marriages

The government did not disclose precise figures for how many Palestinians had become Israeli citizens or residents, or had submitted applications to do so. Israeli officials said that 49 Israelis had been killed in 20 attacks that to some extent involved Palestinians who had entered Israel through family unification.

That's enough to pass this law in my view.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 05:52 am
Mamahani,

That is a red herring. This law is not being passed for security purposes and if it were your justifications for it would be along these lines:

"X murders have been commited by married black men, so we are now prohibiting blacks to marry"
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:07 am
cavfancier wrote:
"Why make a new homeland (after WW II) if you already got one?"

Oh man...you've got to be kidding...Jews, Christians and Muslims alike claim that scrap of desert as holy land. Muslim Arabs already controlled 98% of the land in the area, Christians already had Rome and the Vatican, and why should anyone be forced to live in Russia? All the Jews should go back to Russia I suppose, according to the reasoning in that statement....check your history of the Jewish experience in Russia, you might get it then. Incidentally, most Jews in the world do not live in Israel, nor do they have any desire to. I am just trying to state that biblical prophecy lead to goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel, and there is no reasoning against anything that it is a matter of faith. Why the UN agreed to sanction the state of Israel was an issue of guilt and politics. I'll say it again, blame the current government in Israel, don't blame the Jews. Why don't we just stick to the discussion of Israel, their policies, and the claims of the Palestinians, and avoid unspecific terms like Jews and Arabs, yes? Sounds too much like 'Cowboys and Indians'...


I agree on the Arabs vs Jews, got a bit carried away by Au.

Zionists are followers of the movement to segregate the Jewish people as a nation and to give it a national home. There is no specification on where Zion should be located. Establishing the Jewish Autonomous Region (Birobidzhan) was part of the Kremlin's plan to create an enclave where secular Jewish culture rooted in Yiddish and socialism could serve as an alternative to Palestine. The Kremlin also considered the region a solution to various perceived problems besetting Soviet Jews. Birobidzhan still exists today, but despite its continued official status Jews are a small minority of the inhabitants of the region.

Read a book about it.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:10 am
Mamahani wrote:
New Law Raises Obstacles to Israeli-Palestinian Marriages

The government did not disclose precise figures for how many Palestinians had become Israeli citizens or residents, or had submitted applications to do so. Israeli officials said that 49 Israelis had been killed in 20 attacks that to some extent involved Palestinians who had entered Israel through family unification.

That's enough to pass this law in my view.


Some attacks were carried out by British citizens. How would you respond to that?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:38 am
Frolic
A. Jewish autonomous area in Russia. That is a joke. Have you any idea of the Jewish experience in Russia or for that matter in Europe? I have since my parents both came from there. One from what was known as Russian Poland and the other from the Crimea. Based on the level of anti-Semitism in Russia and the rest of Europe how long before that region would have become a shooting gallery. Historically over the centuries Jews have been welcomed, ghettoized, murdered and expelled from countries in Europe. Why would anyone in his right mind believe or accept such an offer and be at the tender mercies of the Russians and Stalin? No, the only acceptable situation is what we now have. The sovereign state of Israel.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:47 am
hobitbob
You are not a Palestinian or an Arab from the surrounding countries. In addition obviously you are not a resident of an Arab nation. They at least their governments goal has been to destroy Israel.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:47 am
Tell you what frolic, you have indeed piqued my interest in the book. I'll read it if you read this:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7047

My grandfather's personal accounts of living Jewish in Russia, and later, in Canada. It is a great read actually, with lots of humour. Cheers! Love that Stella btw Wink

Just in case anyone thinks I was kidding, Victor Ostrovsky really is my cousin. The family is half proud, half embarrassed at the career path he has chosen, but as he said himself, the more he is in the public eye, the greater chance he has of staying alive.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 06:55 am
Frolic
Quote:
I agree on the Arabs vs Jews, got a bit carried away by Au.


How so?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 07:11 am
Au, I think it is just that discussions regarding Israel-Palestine get a bit heated, and here, there is no need for that, re: my post saying let's stick to the issue without resorting to using generic terms like 'Jews' and 'Arabs'. Both of you are passionate about your positions on this, I think that is all frolic meant, and it's all good. This issue does warrant further discussion, so let's keep it civil, that is all. I have publicly stated that I have avoided frolic's postings on this issue, due to my personal beliefs, and the conflicts that have arisen in my own family regarding Israel 'then and now' so to speak. I hope we can keep this thread friendly, and try to understand the complexities of the issues on both sides. Wink Sheesh, seems I am Canadian after all Rolling Eyes
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 07:34 am
au,

How long are you gonna stick with that tired old saw? I refer to this ridiculous comment:

"their governments (Arab Nations) goal has been to destroy Israel"

That is patently false and is the type of unmitigated bias that makes discussion with you on this issue largely pointless.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 07:54 am
Craven
It might be an old saw however, what is being preached in the Mosques and, until very recently and under pressure, by PA. and surrounding Arab nations? Israel has no right to exist. Is that not so?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 07:56 am
You said nothing about mosques. There are Israelis who advocate the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, would it be fair to say that the Israeli government does (since the Prime Minister of Isreal has said as much in the past)?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 08:05 am
Cav
Quote:

my post saying let's stick to the issue without resorting to using generic terms like 'Jews' and 'Arabs'
.
How else can one describe the people being talked about. And yes it is a hot button issue and will get a little heated at times. However, as long as it remains fairly civil no sweat. However, if you prefer I will stay out of further discussion.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 08:12 am
Crven
I have no doubt that many hard line Isreali's would love to see the Palestinians leave Israel. Whether it is because they are Arabs or because of their loyalties and distrust I can not say. However, I would expect it is some of both.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 08:18 am
And just for the record. I do not agree with a law that keeps families apart.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 12:14 pm
au1929 wrote:
hobitbob
You are not a Palestinian or an Arab from the surrounding countries. In addition obviously you are not a resident of an Arab nation. They at least their governments goal has been to destroy Israel.

Once again, a simplistic reading of events. In very few instances are government policies slavishly fillowed or parroted by its people. The Israeli law seems more like the act of a government attempting to see what it can get away with,and if this is sucessfull, then it will attempt further repressive legislation. This is the way to more violence, not less.
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