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Can you believe in OBE without believing in a god?

Forums: Spirituality And Religion
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neologist
 
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 03:42 pm
OBE = Out of Body Experiences,
NDE = Near Death Experiences,
Reincarnation and Soul Travel
Immortality of the Soul

(Forgive me if I have overlooked any one's relevant belief.)

All of these beliefs seem to me to have one thing in common, the belief that the personality or soul can have life independent of the body.

What I am wondering is does this belief necessitate a belief in a supernatural divine being?

Is there any evidence that such a being has communicated with humans?
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 03:44 pm
Yes, i can believe it . . . but i don't.

Why would an omnipotent imaginary friend be necessary to believe other silly things of a dissimilar character?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 03:49 pm
Setanta wrote:
Yes, i can believe it . . . but i don't.

Why would an omnipotent imaginary friend be necessary to believe other silly things of a dissimilar character?
Are you saying that such 'disciplines' as Eckankar are silly?
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 04:00 pm
Yup.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 04:08 pm
I agree. However my corresponding opinion has been scorned. Laughing
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 04:10 pm
I'm an equal opportunity skeptic . . . i think all y'all are goofy.
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xingu
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 06:00 pm
Re: Can you believe in OBE without believing in a god?
Personally I believe in a separate body and soul. Can't prove it because it can't be proven using scientific measuring. I base my belief on what has happened around me and what I have read on the subject.

Do I believe in a divine being? If you ask me do I believe in God than no. God represents what's in the Bible and that's a manmade creature, like Zeus. But the Light? I'm much more comfortable with that. But I can't say for sure being as how I have never had a NDE. I rely on the experience of others.

At some point you have to ask are these experiences NDE'er had real or not? Are they conning us or were they experiencing hallucinations?

I believe them and I think they are real. There are just to many of them in to many cultures and religions spanning a very large time frame to be put off as nonsense.
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 07:02 pm
"Supernatural divine being" suggests a conception of God as an independent entity. There is no evidence for this, and this description of God makes no sense beyond a certain point. It is an idea from popular culture and religious tradition arising from an ego-based understanding of spirituality. A truer understanding is that God is absolute, unbounded Being, beyond the phenomenal world (both physical and subtle), experienced as formless pure consciousness. God is not separate. When one becomes aware of pure consciousness, God is experienced in you as you. So, no, belief in NDEs, etc., does not necessitate a belief in a supernatural divine being, but it does imply the existence of some kind of supernatural dimension.

The word "God" brings so much cultural baggage with it and leads to endless discussions between religionists and atheists that never seem to be resolved. A better question might be whether there exists a supernatural dimension and whether we can find evidence for it. Like xingu, I believe the evidence for NDEs (and certain psychic phenomena) are compelling.
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farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 07:34 pm
whats ekankar? Sounds like somekinda skin lesion. Am I warm? Im on a dialup up here an it takes fer bleedin ever to google anything. SO for the next month or so, anybody comes up with something that Ive never heard of, I needs some explanations, if you plese.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 08:03 pm
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OGIONIK
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 09:31 pm
i experienced an OBE once, i was severely intoxicated with marijuana at the time and my take on the situation was that i was simply imagining myself with extreme detail from an outside perspective.

take it how you will..
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littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Jul, 2007 09:33 pm
How could you possibly be certain that it was an OBE and not a drug induced hallucination?
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 09:18 am
Re: Can you believe in OBE without believing in a god?
xingu wrote:
I believe them and I think they are real. There are just to many of them in to many cultures and religions spanning a very large time frame to be put off as nonsense.


"One of the proofs of the immortality of the soul is that myriads have believed it. They also believed the world was flat."

-- Samuel Langhorne Clemens

"Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one."

-- Anatole France

"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

-- Anatole France
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 09:44 am
One probably shouldn't believe in OBEs or any other phenomena associated with the supernatural until you have direct experience of it. At that point you have a dilemma -- either you believe that you are hallucinating, or that it is a valid experience of something real. I would argue that in the absence of evidence of mental illness or brain dysfunction, a person has to consider the possibility of it being an experience of something real, and see if it is corroborated by the experience of others. We should ask whether it is consistent with our scientific knowledge about the world. Can the experience be repeated? One needs a healthy skepticism, but at some point we have to recognize that there is a spiritual dimension and that there can be certain experiences that are characteristic of this way of knowing.
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xingu
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 10:09 am
A study was done in the Netherlands one NDE and patients who suffered cardiac arrest.

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

This is an incident that came from this study.

Quote:


Accounts like these are not uncommon in NDE research.

Understand a few things here. This is not a religion. There are no religious overtones in this story. There is no church of NDE.

This is not a hallucination. This is a straightforward account of what he saw when he was outside of his body.

This is a hallucination;

Quote:
Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


I don't know what this joker was on but it was powerful.

Until someone can give me an adequate explanation I will believe the patient. I don't see him or the many other people who have the same experiences as being liars in a conspiracy to promote a God or religion.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 11:07 am
xingu wrote:
A study was done in the Netherlands one NDE and patients who suffered cardiac arrest.

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

This is an incident that came from this study.

Quote:
The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."


Accounts like these are not uncommon in NDE research.

. . .
Emphasis mine.

Would you say this is the same thing as soul travel or soul migration?
In other words, did the patient have any control over his expereince or any ability to maintain his conscious state?
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xingu
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 11:30 am
He was in a coma Neo! You tell me. Do you have control over anything when your in a coma?
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 11:31 am
IFeelFree wrote:
I would argue that in the absence of evidence of mental illness or brain dysfunction, a person has to consider the possibility of it being an experience of something real, and see if it is corroborated by the experience of others.


Given that hypoxia can destroy brain tissue even in those instances in which the victim survives, it is no stretch at all to describe so-called "near death experiences" as a temporary, acute, traumatic incidence of brain dysfunction. As for that hilarious **** with which IFF underpins all his "spirituality" horseshit to the effect that other people reporting similar experiences validates the deep-in-left-field construction he wishes to put on such experiences--see the quotes of Mr. Clemens and M. France which i have already provided.
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 11:32 am
The more i read of you silly burroshit, IFF, the less inclined i am to believe the part of your song and dance in which you claim to be a scientist.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 12:11 pm
xingu wrote:
He was in a coma Neo! You tell me. Do you have control over anything when your in a coma?


What I am trying to establish is if there is any indication that the patient would have/could have progressed to another conscious state? The experience of moving towards a light may sound comforting; but if there is no hope for volition, wouldn't that be worse than unconsciousness? Just asking.

Minor edit
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