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Can you believe in OBE without believing in a god?

 
 
IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 12:49 pm
Setanta wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
I would argue that in the absence of evidence of mental illness or brain dysfunction, a person has to consider the possibility of it being an experience of something real, and see if it is corroborated by the experience of others.


Given that hypoxia can destroy brain tissue even in those instances in which the victim survives, it is no stretch at all to describe so-called "near death experiences" as a temporary, acute, traumatic incidence of brain dysfunction. As for that hilarious **** with which IFF underpins all his "spirituality" horseshit to the effect that other people reporting similar experiences validates the deep-in-left-field construction he wishes to put on such experiences--see the quotes of Mr. Clemens and M. France which i have already provided.

There are numerous NDE experiences like the one that xinqu quotes. It is very difficult to dismiss them all as hypoxia.
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 12:52 pm
I do not dismiss them all as hypoxia--however, it is far more plausible to recognize that someone who approaches death is experiencing "evidence of . . . brain dysfunction" than to rush off into Lala land proclaiming evidence of a profound "spiritual" experience. Your urgent desire to ascribe such experiences to a "spiritual" causation is the reason why i begin to doubt that you are "a scientist." Certainly that you say you are is no good reason to believe it--and such claims by you make the claim suspect.
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 01:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
The more i read of you silly burroshit, IFF, the less inclined i am to believe the part of your song and dance in which you claim to be a scientist.

I suppose I should defend myself. I have the equivalent of a Masters degree in physics (I was in the Physics Ph.D. program at UCSB for 2 years but left, having achieved the highest grade of all Ph.D. candidates in the electromagnetism portion of the qualifying exam.) My professional area of expertise is semiconductor photon detectors, primarily infrared, visible, x-ray, and gamma-ray. I've published about 3 dozen papers (most as the first author), and given presentations at many scientific conferences and symposia. I worked at a government-funded lab (Dept. of Energy) for 11 years, and for commercial employers since then. I'm currently developing mathematical models and test software for infrared focal plane arrays that are used in astronomy, earth mapping, surveillance, and missile guidance.
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 01:15 pm
Setanta wrote:
I do not dismiss them all as hypoxia--however, it is far more plausible to recognize that someone who approaches death is experiencing "evidence of . . . brain dysfunction" than to rush off into Lala land proclaiming evidence of a profound "spiritual" experience. Your urgent desire to ascribe such experiences to a "spiritual" causation is the reason why i begin to doubt that you are "a scientist." Certainly that you say you are is no good reason to believe it--and such claims by you make the claim suspect.

Feel free to ask me any physics question, particularly in the area of electromagnetism or semiconductor physics. (You could ask a type of question that I couldn't simply look up the answer on Google.)
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 01:19 pm
Then i must say that it is truly appalling that when confronted with the most unreliable of evidence--human, personal, idiosyncratic testimony--you immediately opt for completely untestable hypotheses, which rely upon the most subjective of decisions, all conditioned by culture and language, and none subject to testing. It appears that entia non sunt multiplicanda means nothing to you. That is not only a plausible basis for philosophical discussion, it is an essential part of the formation of hypotheses employing an empirical investigative method.

When someone is in danger of their life, not just hypoxia, but a entire range of metabolic reactions, and hormone reactions and glandular releases of hormones into the circulatory system, threaten the homeostasis of the entire organism. To ignore all of those drastic physical conditions and reactions, and to leap forward to claims about "spiritual" experiences is nothing less than the highest appeal to the absurd. It certainly is not a conclusion which shares any commonalities with the scientific method.
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 02:17 pm
Setanta wrote:
Then i must say that it is truly appalling that when confronted with the most unreliable of evidence--human, personal, idiosyncratic testimony--you immediately opt for completely untestable hypotheses, which rely upon the most subjective of decisions, all conditioned by culture and language, and none subject to testing. It appears that entia non sunt multiplicanda means nothing to you. That is not only a plausible basis for philosophical discussion, it is an essential part of the formation of hypotheses employing an empirical investigative method.

entia non sunt multiplicanda? Its been many years since I took Latin so I had to look that one up. It translates as "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity". As a result of many years of spiritual practice, I began to have experiences which may be considered "non-ordinary". Therefore, I had to "multiply entities" in order to accommodate these experiences. Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." As a result of my experiences and research on the subject of spirituality, my world-view has expanded to include the spiritual dimension and psychic experiences, in part because these have become part of my personal experience. Science is based on materialism. The correct way to do science is to look for a physical cause for all effects. However, materialism is not a sufficient basis for a unifying world-view that can incorporate all of human experience. There is too much evidence out there, if one looks, that there is a whole class of experiences and ways of knowing that are "extra-sensory".
Quote:
When someone is in danger of their life, not just hypoxia, but a entire range of metabolic reactions, and hormone reactions and glandular releases of hormones into the circulatory system, threaten the homeostasis of the entire organism. To ignore all of those drastic physical conditions and reactions, and to leap forward to claims about "spiritual" experiences is nothing less than the highest appeal to the absurd. It certainly is not a conclusion which shares any commonalities with the scientific method.

That doesn't explain how the comatose patient knew where his dentures had been placed.
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 03:29 pm
Nor do you have any evidence that the patient was comatose at the time his dentures were disposed of, or that any of the entire story is true. There is a term for that--gullibility. You want to believe it, so you do. I am not a scientist, and never have claimed to be. I have, however, studied history carefully all of my life--and that is what makes me very skeptical about evidence and its sources. You have absolutely no way of knowing if any of the testimony is reliable--and since these sorts of episodes are generally only of interest to those who wish to believe in a "spiritual dimension" in the first place, their testimony is immediately suspect by the most basic standards of historiography.

Studying history and the methods of historiography has taught me something else, too. That is that anyone who believes that there is any overarching connection between human individuals and groups over time and space is building castles in Spain, and desperately looking for evidence of what they have already decided to believe. I can think of few things sillier than a contention that there were "a unifying world-view that can incorporate all of human experience."
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xingu
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 05:16 pm
neologist wrote:
xingu wrote:
He was in a coma Neo! You tell me. Do you have control over anything when your in a coma?


What I am trying to establish is if there is any indication that the patient would have/could have progressed to another conscious state? The experience of moving towards a light may sound comforting; but if there is no hope for volition, wouldn't that be worse than unconsciousness? Just asking.

Minor edit


In this case there was no light. It was nothing more than an OBE. From what I understand our conscious is our soul.

But that brings up the question of what does the brain control. An example is my father. He was a good man, a gentleman, polite and respectful to other people. But there came a point in his life when suffered a series of minor strokes. It changed his personality. He became more abusive and rude. Eventually the strokes increased and he became a vegetable and finally died in a VA hospital.

It seems the spirit and body are independent of one another but the soul is dependent upon the body to express itself. If the body breaks down the soul can't be seen as it is. As one person said our body is nothing more than a vehicle for our soul to express ourselves in this world.

But I am not going to say this is gospel. There's a lot I don't know or understand so I will have to wait till my time come to find the answers.

Perhaps that's why there's religion. People want answers and they will make them up to satisfy themselves. That's why there are so many creation myths in the world. Everyone ask;
"Where did we come from?"
How did all this begin?"

Everyone has a different answer and a different God to go along with the answer.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 05:38 pm
xingu wrote:
[ . . .But that brings up the question of what does the brain control. An example is my father. He was a good man, a gentleman, polite and respectful to other people. But there came a point in his life when suffered a series of minor strokes. It changed his personality. He became more abusive and rude. Eventually the strokes increased and he became a vegetable and finally died in a VA hospital.
. . .
My sympathies. My own father died the same way - from Alzheimer's.
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xingu
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2007 04:55 pm
If anyone thinks NDE is not taken seriously by science, then think again. This is an article in Newsweek about treating sudden cardiac arrest.

Quote:
But there's another answer to the question of where Bondar's mind was during the last week of May. This is the view that the mind is more than the sum of the parts of the brain, and can exist outside it. "We still have no idea how brain cells generate something as abstract as a thought," says Dr. Sam Parnia, a British pulmonologist and a fellow at Weill Cornell Medical College. "If you look at a brain cell under a microscope, it can't think. Why should two brain cells think? Or 2 million?" The evidence that the mind transcends the brain is said to come from near-death experiences, the powerful sensation of well-being that has been described by people like Anthony Kimbrough, a Tennessee real-estate agent who suffered a massive coronary in 2005 at the age of 44. Dying on the table in the cath lab during angioplasty, he sensed the room going dark, then lighter, and "all of a sudden I could breathe. I wasn't in pain. I felt the best I ever felt in my life. I remember looking at the nurses' faces and thinking, 'Folks, if you knew how great this is, you wouldn't be worried about dying'." Kimbrough had the odd sensation of being able to see everything in his room at once, and even into the next room. He is one of about 1,200 people who have registered their experiences with a radiation oncologist named Dr. Jeffrey Long, who established the Near Death Experience Research Foundation in 1998 to investigate the mystery of how unconscious people can form conscious memories.

That's also what motivates Parnia, who has begun a study of near-death experiences in four hospitals in Britain, aiming for 30 by the year-end. The study will test the frequently reported sensation of looking down on one's body from above, by putting random objects on high shelves above the beds of patients who are likely to die. If they later claim to have been floating near the ceiling, he plans to ask them what they saw. Parnia insists he's not interested in validating anyone's religious beliefs; his idea is that death can be studied by scientists, as well as theologians.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19751440/site/newsweek/
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 12:19 pm
xingu wrote:
If anyone thinks NDE is not taken seriously by science, then think again. This is an article in Newsweek about treating sudden cardiac arrest.

It's good to see more scientists taking this phenomenon seriously. Scientists are just like everybody else -- some are closed-minded, some are more open to new ideas. Some scientists are trying to explain NDEs completely in terms of neuro-biological factors and dismiss the notion that consciousness can exist independent of a functioning brain. However, I think an open-minded appraisal of the recorded NDEs strongly suggests otherwise.
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roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 03:27 pm
Setanta wrote:
Yes, i can believe it . . . but i don't.

Why would an omnipotent imaginary friend be necessary to believe other silly things of a dissimilar character?


Makes sense to me, and entirely more believeable than any kind of omnipotent creator.
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 03:29 pm
Translation: you'd be gratified to think that someone with more readily recognized credentials than the average Joe were to confirm you favorite superstition. Tell me, Mr. Science Guy, do you actually hold out hope that "science" will be able to demonstrate, using its core naturalistic means, the existence of the supernatural?

Stop, you old kidder, yer killin' me.
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 04:48 pm
Setanta wrote:
do you actually hold out hope that "science" will be able to demonstrate, using its core naturalistic means, the existence of the supernatural?

That is what some of these studies are attempting to do, such as the study by Dr. Parnia that xingu quoted. The ability of unconscious patients to observe objects placed on high shelves, out of view of the patient, has been observed anecdotally by some medical staff. Dr. Parnia is trying to document it more systematically.
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2007 05:52 am
OK then . . .


. . . wanna buy a bridge?
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echi
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 10:23 pm
bm
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IFeelFree
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:01 am
Setanta wrote:
OK then . . .

. . . wanna buy a bridge?

The whole point of seeing through something is to see something else. The point of seeing through a window is to see the garden beyond. If you claim to see through everything, everything is transparent, and therefore invisible, so if you claim to see through everything you'll see nothing.

-- C.S. Lewis
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 09:13 am
A completely pointless response. I expect nothing less from you.
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 09:40 pm
"However, persons with near death experiences appear to have an arousal system predisposed to both REM intrusion and out-of-body experiences."

Quote:
These results suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning may be involved in the near-death experience and that individuals who have had such experiences are physiologically distinct from the general population."However, persons with near death experiences appear to have an arousal system predisposed to both REM intrusion and out-of-body experiences."

Source: University of Kentucky

http://www.physorg.com/news92335348.html
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 09:43 pm
Quote:
Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind
Scientists: Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation
By Marsha Walton (CNN)
Thursday, September 19, 2002 Posted: 3:50 PM EDT (1950 GMT)
CNN) -- Over the years, many people have described having "out-of-body" experiences, but there's not much solid scientific data on what causes them. Now, a chance event may shed some light on what produces the feeling.
Neurology researchers in Switzerland report the case of a woman who described "floating above her own body and watching herself" while she was undergoing testing and treatment for epilepsy. The strange experience only occurred when one particular part of her brain, the angular gyrus in the right cortex, was stimulated with an electrode. And it happened every time the angular gyrus was stimulated.
"Of course it was a big surprise when she told us," said Dr. Olaf Blanke, a neurologist at Geneva University Hospital, and author of the findings in this week's edition of the British journal Nature.
"You hear strange reports sometimes, but in five or six years of doing this I've never gotten that sort of response before," said Blanke.
He says the patient wasn't really frightened, but she did say it was a very strange sensation.
Blanke said it would have been difficult for the patient to fake such an experience. She had up to 100 electrodes implanted in her brain for these sessions, and had no idea which electrode would be stimulated, or when. The stimulations each took 2 seconds or less.
At other times during the same session, Blanke said, the patient screamed, because she "saw" her legs shortening, and "saw" her knees about to hit her face.

Electrodes and brain 'mapping'
The unidentified 43-year-old patient had suffered from epileptic seizures for 11 years. Doctors were using electrodes to try to pinpoint the origin of her seizures. Such brain "mapping" is also used to help doctors identify critical areas of the brain, like those responsible for speech or movement, so they aren't damaged during surgery.
While the electrodes are implanted under full anesthesia, patients are fully awake during the testing procedure, so their comfort, language skills, and responses can be constantly monitored.
This case is a little unusual for researchers, since the out-of-body experience was a surprise to both the patient and the doctors. Since nothing was planned, as it would have been in standard research, there were no control groups or other measures, like perhaps videotaping the session.
Others in the field say these serendipitous findings sound plausible, and intriguing for further study.
"It does fit in with a body of work on how we perceive our bodies and space," said Dr. Barry Gordon, professor of neurology at Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions.
He says similar descriptions have come from other people with epilepsy, and from stroke victims and others who have had seizures. This region of the brain may also tie in to the well-documented descriptions of "phantom limbs" by amputees.
"Our brains are not built the way we think; the inner mind is more bizarrely constructed than we might think," said Gordon.
As an example, Gordon said, when you look at an apple, you might see red and round and shiny and think of the word, "apple." But the brain may see the red in one place, the round and shiny in another, and process the word "apple" in yet another. We count on our brains to sort it all out and combine it into something we understand, he said.
An out-of-body experience may be a slight disconnect or misfiring of the processing of information. And, said both Blanke and Gordon, the trauma of having electrodes implanted in one's skull, plus the fear and uncertainty that go along with a complex clinical procedure, could possibly help trigger such a misfiring of information, such as the case of the Geneva patient.
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.
She said some patients see lights flashing, others see cartoon characters, others have feelings of deja vu, or its opposite, jamais vu (when what is really a very familiar experience seems to be happening for the first time). All of these events can be precursors to a seizure.

Neuroscience and the paranormal
The angular gyrus is a complex part of the brain, responsible for things like body and space awareness, and logical sequencing.
If something is awry there, said Kubu, a patient might put on his pants first, and then his underwear, and not understand that there's a problem. Or the patient might feel like a hand or arm is not connected to the rest of the body, and he can't make it function.
The next step in learning more about out-of-body experiences will likely be efforts to try and replicate the results in other patients who agree to take part in such tests.
"This is fun, fascinating stuff," said Kubu. "And it could help our patients get better," she said.
As for Blanke's patient in Geneva, she is doing much better, he says, and her seizures are under control.
Dr. Blanke is hopeful that many different experts will be able to work together in using this unexpected information from his patient. He says there's even some value in what's often viewed as the "paranormal."
"Lots of people try to explain something away which is for many people, an amazing experience that has transformed their lives. I hope we can add some precise neuroscience and try to collaborate with people in many fields," said Blanke.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/
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