Is it wrong for Christians to use ESP talent/similar?

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Let me start by saying this question is not geared to those against Christianity or a question of if Christianity is correct. It is about questioning why or even if something is considered theologically o-k according to the Bible/Christianity. So no Christian bashing.

I consider myself a Christian. Several months ago I had my palm read that was offered at a company outing. I had never done any of these sorts of things - card readers/crystal ball/tea readers, etc. before. Honestly I think these sorts of things are usually full of crap - and simply for fun - perhaps some of these people are simply very perceptive or intitive and even perhaps some may have some sort of God-given talent to predict the future or perceive things that others are oblvious to. When I told a co-worker about attending - who is a strong Christian - he alluded to it being akin to devil like.

I also had a Christian explain to me how he was very advanced at maritial arts. He became so advanced that he could "fight" while blindfolded - in a sense he was developing an ability to feel or sense when an attack was going to happen and be able to block, avoid it or attack as a result. As a Christian, he became scared - he should not be using such "skills" and stopped doing so.

I figured it is a God-given talent at best - at worst a hoax. If God has given you a talent or skill, shouldn't you use it? It doesn't have to be used for so-called black magic; it can be used to help others. What are different Christian thoughts/viewpoints on these "skills"?

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ifyou are a christian then you must know these things are of the devil

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Exodus 22:18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

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I ask the question because there are several - for lack of a better term - levels of Christians - extremists where obviously this would be the work of the devil - to moderates - sure women can be spiritual leaders - to the other extreme - sure party drinking free sex is all cool.

I some times find when discussing my actions with other parents from my daughter's school a look of shock (they obviously must think I am a heathen) to a look of relief (o-k other people actually have a glass of wine and they don't seem concerned they will be damned for life).

Didn't know if some one that is much more versed (pun) in different thoughts of the Church think this sort of thing isn't "bad". If you haven't noticed I tend toward the moderate side of things.

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When I lived in OK and there were a lot of Southern Baptists about that sort of thing would have been frowned upon. Anything that might lend itself to being a way to "let the devil in" was considered taboo by most of them. Some went so far as to claim that computers and the Internet were ways that "evil" could sneak into your house. (Evil sneaks in through the wires ya know! Razz

)

I think most wouldn't object the martial arts type thing though. Seems to me that that sort of thing is more an ability to fine tune one's own ability to predict the movements of the other person. For example, If I observe that 80% of the time after you kick with your left foot you move to the right, I can deduce that if I strike to the right of where a kick came from you'd be there 80% of the time. The person isn't "calling on" some external "spirit being" to assist them in that.

But then people seem to be able to justify almost any belief so I'm sure there are some that think anything other than standing in the corner on your head while dressed in purple from head to toe is wrong.

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Noddy24 wrote:

Exodus 22:18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Everything you are describing is considered "witch craft" to a certain extent and is NOT ok by Christianity if you pull it directly out of the bible.

If you pull these hat tricks ( palm reading, blindfolded fighting etc) out of a .. err.... ( for lack of better terms .. ) a witches bible, these are just things that everyone can do when they learn to listen to the vibrations (energy) that EVERYTHING gives off.

( for example ONLY)

Sort of like the breaking down of the molecule.
The stronger an object, the faster the molecules in it are moving.
The softer the object the slower.
witch craft is learning how to feel that diffrence.

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I don't believe what I am describing (esp/tarot card reading) is witch craft - it really depends on what your thoughts of witch craft are. I wouldn't consider because you are intuitive that you are using witch craft, for example. Or if you can predict the future, it is witch craft.

Also, as anyone most understand one verse in the Bible can be interpreted several different ways. Is this the true interpretation of the verse from the original language? Often times what is written in English seems straight forward if you only consider the English words. If you consider the original language, often times there are several ways to interpret the thought.

Just look at this one verse and see the various English translations:

1. American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
2. The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
3. Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
4. Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
5. James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
6. Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
7. King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
8. Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
9. Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
10. New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
11. New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
12. New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
13. New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
14. New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
15. New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
16. New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
17. The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
18. Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
19. Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.

Whereas if you look at the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. That is not even what you are referring to as witch craft.

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I think the linked page below provides a lot of the references back and forth between many of these areas and (Christian) religious beliefs and prohibitions.

http://www.fni.com/cim/technicals/occultt.txt

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Thanks - I will have to look at this in more detail when I have time, however, on initial read through - this again seems to only show one interpretation of the Bible and one thought process - the thought process by this particular ministry. It tends to lump Christians of being of only one mind sight - the literal English interpretation of the Bible.

I completely understand how this happens because even a more open minded minister may say - you might hear this or this interpretation, however, I believe or this ministry believes it is clear - God means this. I have often heard this sort of wording at services. I prefer that it could mean this or it could mean that - I believe that God wants it to be open minded - why else would He gives us free thought? Also by having so many viewpoints it opens up the Bible for discussion - helping to keep it "alive" and a living document rather than something you simply read, follow the rules and then that's it. (Well that's my lecture).

I would venture to guess if I were to research a bit of these verses - again I would be able to find various English wordings depending on the Bible interpretation. This may or may not conflict with each other or from the original language.

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Linkat wrote:

Thanks - I will have to look at this in more detail when I have time, however, on initial read through - this again seems to only show one interpretation of the Bible and one thought process - the thought process by this particular ministry. It tends to lump Christians of being of only one mind sight - the literal English interpretation of the Bible.

I would point out that fni.com isn't a ministry. They are an Internet Service Provider and the page linked is a collection from previous USENET discussions on various western religions and the occult. In effect, it is the coollective work of a few thousand people much like discussions here can be.

Quote:

I completely understand how this happens because even a more open minded minister may say - you might hear this or this interpretation, however, I believe or this ministry believes it is clear - God means this. I have often heard this sort of wording at services. I prefer that it could mean this or it could mean that - I believe that God wants it to be open minded - why else would He gives us free thought? Also by having so many viewpoints it opens up the Bible for discussion - helping to keep it "alive" and a living document rather than something you simply read, follow the rules and then that's it. (Well that's my lecture).

Ok, now take your view as one side of the "Is the glass half full or half empty?" question. Wink

Your idea looks at the various sects from one end of the equation - they are established and they preach their individual interpretation of the Bible. That's fine.

On the other side - The various sects exist because there were discussions and differences. Those who gathered up enough followers to their interpretation splintered off and setup their own sect/ministry. The Protestants split from the Catholics for that very reason. The Catholic Church itself split in two and there are now many, many Protestant sects. From that end, locking into one meaning makes complete sense. The people that are members of a particular sect/ministry are there because they believe that specific interpretation. If they chose to exercise their free will their option is to leave their current sect and particiapte in another sect that shares their beliefs.

If all of the various Christian sects decided that any other's interpretation was as good as their's then they'd all just be one huge Christain sect. They'd have no to reason to self-segregate. (Then, of course, you could start getting into the business end of running a religion/sect/ministry along with the monetary and political power that goes with it which is a whole nother topic of discussion...). The same thing happens within all of the other major religions in the world as well. There are various Jewish sects and numerous Muslim sects. Each Muslim sect interprets the Koran differently.

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I guess I misunderstood about my ministry comment as the article itself stated it was written from Christian Information Ministries and stated" Christian Information Ministries is a non-profit ministry" It described itself as a ministry.

Yes - I agree exactly of the various sects in Christianity - what I was trying to gather was the different viewpoints from various sects. For example, some believe that women ministers are fine and there is support from the Bible for this (I have gathered that information before so I am aware of the whys vs the why nots).

This was one viewpoint, I believe - I am trying to see if there are others, what they are and what support they have toward these beliefs.

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One has to question any religion that attempts to stifle the expression of one's true nature. Remember, at some point in history Christianity has forbid many things that are now considered our god-given right including individual love, i.e., love for a person. The story of Tristan and Isolde is the story of two young people in the middle ages who were willing to risk execution and excommunication for their love for each other. Back then all marriages were arranged and love other than a love for their god was illegal with those severe punishments.

Since true religion relates to the eternal--that which is outside the limits of time--the old historical nature of the Church's crime does not excuse them.

If you would feel guilty about using ESP, assuming that it actually exists, then you must also cease and desist from any activity that the church proclaims anathema or has ever proclaimed anathema, being that religion is applicaple in the eternal, and, therefore, its bans can have no beginning nor end.

I'm saying that if you submit to the authority and command of a church, you have to either accept or reject it in toto, because that's their attitude toward the membership. They must accept fully or leave.

I'm also saying that this is exactly why organized religion is dying, because religion requires total freedom of mind, and the church cannot tolerate total freedom of mind.

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coluber2001 wrote:

One has to question any religion that attempts to stifle the expression of one's true nature. Remember, at some point in history Christianity has forbid many things that are now considered our god-given right including individual love, i.e., love for a person. The story of Tristan and Isolde is the story of two young people in the middle ages who were willing to risk execution and excommunication for their love for each other. Back then all marriages were arranged and love other than a love for their god was illegal with those severe punishments.

Since true religion relates to the eternal--that which is outside the limits of time--the old historical nature of the Church's crime does not excuse them.

If you would feel guilty about using ESP, assuming that it actually exists, then you must also cease and desist from any activity that the church proclaims anathema or has ever proclaimed anathema, being that religion is applicaple in the eternal, and, therefore, its bans can have no beginning nor end.

I'm saying that if you submit to the authority and command of a church, you have to either accept or reject it in toto, because that's their attitude toward the membership. They must accept fully or leave.

I'm also saying that this is exactly why organized religion is dying, because religion requires total freedom of mind, and the church cannot tolerate total freedom of mind.

I don't think you have a complete view of the various thoughts in the Christian Church - many actually have the thought process where you are not expected to agree in total. Even at a more conservative church I attended, the minister pretty much said for Christianity you believe the basic Jesus is God's son and you accept Him, the rest is pretty up to different interpretation. That is not to say this minister would not fully state what his viewpoints and understanding of the Bible is.

I also do not feel guilty (if I had any sort of ESP) in using this - simply what are different viewpoints within the Church.

Is it a God giving talent or is it of the devil or evil forces? If it is used for positive things - helping to find a lost child is it still evil?

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I did find some interesting information regarding Deuteronomy 18:10-11 when considering the Hebrew words of what is not permitted. It seems when interpreting from Hebrew (at least from the definitions I could find), the verses would prohibit:

1) Harming or killing people by using evil sorcery, or knot magic (which is tying and untying knots while cursing someone).
2) Engaging in foretelling by studying nature (like how groundhog day is celebrated) or casting sticks or astrology.
3) Raising ghosts or spirits by a medium.
4) Channeling - spirit speaking through a person
5) Snake charming.

I guess I am all set with palm reading. It does strike me as odd the groundhog day thing though - although I do not believe anyone would really take that seriously.

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Ultimately, I consider religion to be a subjective experience and not an objective reality. This subjective experience is simply seeing the nature of the self or ego as a continuum of short-term memories reinforcing the self-image. This explains why some hallucinogins, which interrupt short-term memory, produce religious experience. The religious experience is the abscence of the illusion of the ego traveling in time. The experience is called eternity, and though this term is usually misinterpreted as endless time, it merely means outside the frame of time.

All this seems completely complex, of course, and anathema to all Christian thought, but many cultures have or had techniques to achieve the religious experience through drugs or chanting or other means. For instance the Sufi or whirling dervishes are the mystical sect of Islam who attempt to achieve a mystical state of mind through whirling.

It is the patriarchal religions that oppose direct religious experience based on ritual or drugs.

Patriarchal religions tend to be based on dogma or thought and words and oppose something that can't be conceptualized, thus God must be separate from the universe, in other words a noun and not a verb. ESP is outside the control of the mind and, therefore, suspect. This does not mean that I believe that ESP exists. I don't know is it does, but it would be easy enough to prove through a simple guessing of playing card suits. Somebody claiming to have ESP, such as Sylvia Browne, could prove it once and for all.

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Quote:

As a Christian, he became scared - he should not be using such "skills" and stopped doing so.

Free yourselves from the oppressing grasp of christianity. Besides, christianity has always preached love by the swordedge. My home country was christianed in blood. Those who didn't voluntarily convert were forced to. If they still refused they were killed on the spot.

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But on the other hand....Christianity has given us grace and grace abundant. Why live in fear, rather be grateful to God.

According to my understanding, there is a Holy Spirit ( who is God) and there are evil spirits. It is possible as the Bible shows in many respects for people with these evil spirits to have extraordinary powers. But, ultimately we know that anything that comes from the devil is something that has been planned to destroy rather than benefit the possessor.

Now, it may trouble some as to why these people are suffering in this manner.

I think that every human has in him/her good in their heart for the Bible says in Ecclesiastes, that God made man upright, but men devised their own schemes. They can use that good (wisdom, love, courage etc.) to allow good to remain within them. Christians also have the power to deliver one from such evil spirits.

In the new testament, remember when a woman filled with evil spirit, shouts aloud that Paul is the servant of God. That's one example.

But, regarding the martial arts guy, I think what he has learnt is a skill, and that in no way is witchcraft.

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In all fairness, the Bible also says that it is an abomination to eat anything of the sea that doesn't have scales or fins. People obvoiusly don't follow that little rule, so why should this "gift" be ignored.

Now, I'd like to go on record that him saying he could "fight blindfolded" doesn't mean he actually can. People make all sorts of ridiculous claims when they know they will never be tested - Christians especially. It is most likely that he cannot fight blindfolded and that he only thinks he has these "powers" much like people *think* they've been abducted by aliens.

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i wonder if esp could be the brain just doing advanced calculations/predictions unconciously?

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OGIONIK wrote:

i wonder if esp could be the brain just doing advanced calculations/predictions unconciously?

I guess that is my take a bit - that most of this is simply strong intitution or an ability to be able to read what people are like. You experience something enough, you can predict more often the outcome.

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Is it wrong for Christians to use ESP talent/similar?

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