banks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 10:29 pm
Re: nicely done
Quote:
I see that you are now sitting on the sidelines, Banks, and hoping that someone can baffle the rest of us with rhetoric for you.


I stated my point of view Intrepid and to continue would be to repeat myself.

I posted the original thread to hear everyone's point of view, not just the views in opposition of mine. I enjoyed seeing someone (Mesquite) come up with an argument that I could not.

And I might enjoy seeing your response to Mesquite's post, but you really haven't responded to the plain truths that were presented in Mesquite's post, instead you long to have me as a lone target.

What's the matter....truth hurt?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 10:54 pm
Re: nicely done
Intrepid wrote:
banks wrote:
Nice post Mesquite. I know it was copied, but if Intrepid has got anything to say to this, I can't wait to hear it.


Once I have an opportunity to properly read it....I will.

A quick scan of the post seems to indicate that a few "juicy" passages have been extracted to try to put forth an intelligent reason for people that have a belief system not to be intelligent. The usual ramblings of someone who does not have facts to support a position...try to overwhelm them with volumous text.

I see that you are now sitting on the sidelines, Banks, and hoping that someone can baffle the rest of us with rhetoric for you.

Let me get back to you Surprised


I am sorry intrepid. I thought that you had asked for some specifics. Now I cannot tell if your complaint is too few "juicy passages" or that you are overwhelmed by the "volumous text".

There really is not that much text. Frank's post has a lot of white space and repetition to allow you to easily see the points. I didn't even bother to give the details of the Egyptian bondage, Noah, Sodom & Gomorah, and Songs of Solomon since I assume that you are aready familiar with them.

I also didn't even touch on sacrifices and denigration of women issues. There is so much more to bring forth that it hardly seems fair, but for now let's see what you can do with what has been provided.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 06:34 am
Re: nicely done
banks wrote:
Quote:
I see that you are now sitting on the sidelines, Banks, and hoping that someone can baffle the rest of us with rhetoric for you.


I stated my point of view Intrepid and to continue would be to repeat myself.

I posted the original thread to hear everyone's point of view, not just the views in opposition of mine. I enjoyed seeing someone (Mesquite) come up with an argument that I could not.

And I might enjoy seeing your response to Mesquite's post, but you really haven't responded to the plain truths that were presented in Mesquite's post, instead you long to have me as a lone target.

What's the matter....truth hurt?


The first post on this thread had to do with why do intelligent people buy into religion. I thought it was to post opinions on this topic, not to debate it. Some, including myself have drawn the thread in that direction. It has now gone in the direction of he said, she said from parts of the bible. I guess the question is not whether every word in the bible is the word of God, or who wrote the bible and their particular motivation. It is why do intelligent people believe in religion. I am not so sure that that question can be answered adequately.

We still haven't determined what the truth actually is and the truth, whatever it is, never "hurts" me. If I have lead this thread away from the original premise, I am sorry. It was not my intention to debate the topic as I don't think it was your intention to follow that course either.

On the other hand, I am not conceding that I have nothing further to say ;-)
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 08:04 am
When I was in therapy I learned that hypnosis puts people in a suggestive state of mind beyond the control of one's intellect; therefore, one in a hypnotic state is open to the suggestion of another's intellect or a prepared program. In our early years of life before the intellect is adequately developed, we are constantly in a similar suggestive state, open to repeated messages that serve to inculcate us. Any message is taken as truth until our own intellect is fully developed, at which time we have the power, to a certain extant, to question our beliefs. Obviously, it's possible to challange these implanted beliefs and delve into roots of the beliefs.

However, there is a strong tendency to simply reject beliefs, since our intellect seems to work in a polar way, that is, on off, good bad, etc. Atheism or agnosticism is not a resolution because both are simply reacting to extablished beliefs.

Consciousness itself, is mysterious. We tend to seek solutions to mysteries, and this case we might go on a spiritual quest or seek to "find ourselves." However, most people are content to follow an established order to get peace of mind rather than go on their own quest. I suppose that's called faith.

The ultimate mystery, like the enjoyment of music, is completely subjective, and doesn't have a solution, and to accept a solution is to reject the poetry of life and turn it into prose. Any solution breaks down the mystery, as over-analyzing breaks down the apprecition of music, and simply saying that the intellect can learn everything is not the point. The intellect can analyze music, but it cannot enjoy it fully, for to do that you must learn to relax.

All religions are true in that they metaphorically represent the mysteries of life and consciousness, but to claim that religious symbols and myths must be taken literally is to say that all poetry is to be taken literally as prose.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 08:29 am
yitwail wrote:
Intrepid, would you mind taking a stab at explaining how Leviticus 25:44-46, which i quoted earlier, did not condone the institution of slavery at the time it was uttered? Time permitting, that is. Thanks.



I will try to answer your question. I am not defending the verses, nor am I debating them. I certainly do not condone them.

At that time, the Israelites were God's chosen people. Everyone else was considered heathen. Laws were laid down for the Levite Priests and the people of Israel. From the very beginning, man had disappointed God and had sinned before Him. The laws, at the time, were very harsh. We can read them in the bible. We must remember that all of that changed later when God sent his son to redeem the world. The harshness of the Old Testament is hard for us to understand or even to accept. The New Testament is what most Christians (at least most Christians that I know) base their faith on. We can read in the New Testament where Jesus gave the people a new and simple commandment.... Matthew 22:37-39 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. And, love your neighbour as yourself.

Verse 44 is hard for us to accept today. Slavery is unacceptable in any form and, thankfully, we have progressed in the modern world. This verse is saying that one Israelite can buy and have bondmen and bondmaids, but they are not to be of the bloodline of Israel; of the lineage of the tribes of Israel.

Verse 45 is saying that strangers and sojourners that come into your land, may be bought and kept as a possession. That means that these bonded-workers could also be passed on in an inheritance from generation, including their offspring. Again, this goes back thousands of years.

The 46th verse is stating that slaves that were purchased, that are not of the lineage of Israelite tribes, are property. If a owner died, then his slaves would be passed on to the next generation, his sons, as their inheritance. An Israelite may not treat another Israelite, no matter what his tribal lineage was, as a slave. Thankfully, we have progressed from this.

I don't think that these verses are a reason for intelligent people to abandon religion.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 10:11 am
Intrepid wrote:

I don't think that these verses are a reason for intelligent people to abandon religion.


I wouldn't go that far myself. But these verses, and other harsh ones (to use your adjective) like them, do give some intelligent people reason to doubt that every word of the Bible is literally true.

And thanks for the thoughtful reply.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 10:18 am
yitwail wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

I don't think that these verses are a reason for intelligent people to abandon religion.


I wouldn't go that far myself. But these verses, and other harsh ones (to use your adjective) like them, do give some intelligent people reason to doubt that every word of the Bible is literally true.

And thanks for the thoughtful reply.


I agree with you. I, for one, have NEVER thought that every single word was true. I think I may have made this clear in previous posts. I would doubt that ANY reasonably intelligent person would disagree with you there.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 10:21 am
Intrepid wrote:

I agree with you. I, for one, have NEVER thought that every single word was true. I think I may have made this clear in previous posts. I would doubt that ANY reasonably intelligent person would disagree with you there.


as a matter of fact, i know someone who is highly intelligent and a Biblical literalist. we avoid discussing religion as much as possible.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 10:24 am
yitwail wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

I agree with you. I, for one, have NEVER thought that every single word was true. I think I may have made this clear in previous posts. I would doubt that ANY reasonably intelligent person would disagree with you there.


as a matter of fact, i know someone who is highly intelligent and a Biblical literalist. we avoid discussing religion as much as possible.


Good! That way, you can remain friends :-)
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 11:22 am
There are people who can't understand metaphors, at least in a religious context.

Taking metaphors literally can become ludicrous, especially when the meatphors butt up against science. For instance the Flood, or the Virgin Birth, or the parting of the Red Sea.

Metaphors in general are ludicrous when taken literally. Imagine Data from "Star Trek, The Next Generation." Captain Picard says, You've got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Data replies, "I tried Captain, but I fell on my a$$." Data had problems with metaphors because he operated strictly on an intellectual level. He also couldn't appreciate music.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 11:50 am
Quote:
There are people who can't understand metaphors, at least in a religious context.


Canticle of canticles, for example (also known as Song of Solomon) is sometimes characterized as metaphor, i think; but once you concede that some passages are metaphorical, you make Biblical interpretation rather subjective, and you could even have the Devil quoting scripture for his purposes.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 12:46 pm
I'd say you should try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps literally. It's probably the metaphorical devil making people take religion literally, and it's worked. Religious wars continue.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 12:47 pm
I'd say you should try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps literally. It's probably the metaphorical devil making people take religion literally, and it's worked. Religious wars continue.
0 Replies
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:37 pm
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
BoGoWo wrote:
I would like to see 'religion' treated more or less like sex; it would be banned from the lives of children until they reach the 'age of consent' (considered to be the age at which they can as young adults, make up their own minds, and make rational choices).
Unfortunately biology only assists in keeping sex 'under wraps' through childhood (except for the vilest of offensive adult demands), but no such 'protection' exists for keeping the minds of children open to seek out the truth, rather than 'learn' it.

[given the choice.................]


This would possibly work better than supressing sex. The problem with surpressing sex is that it's stupidly pointless. It's already in their head and tangled up in their DNA. They hit puberty and suddenly their pituitary gland dumps vast reams of sex-guides into their subconcious.

I think that children should be taught about sex. (ewww, not that way). So that when biology strikes they'll be prepared to understand it. The raw animal instinct of sexual reproduction exploding out into a vacuum in the childs knowledge could have bad results, rather than the instincts merely granting acceptance of the strange intellectual concepts they've been taught.

On the other hand I don't believe that religion is already "in there". If you seal religions out then while the child may invent some religious concepts here and there it'll be much more effective than trying to keep sex out of the brain.


whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!

watch it! guide gog;

i was talking about using the same methodology of dealing with religion, as is currently used for their introduction to sex;

I WAS NOT PRAISING THE CURRENT SEX EDUCATION PARAMETERS!!!!
0 Replies
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:44 pm
if the bible were written today, disconnected from any deities, the Republican Congress, with the urging of the religious right would 'ban' it!

[mind you, it would be a pretty silly thing to write today!]
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2005 12:02 am
Intrepid wrote:
yitwail wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

I don't think that these verses are a reason for intelligent people to abandon religion.


I wouldn't go that far myself. But these verses, and other harsh ones (to use your adjective) like them, do give some intelligent people reason to doubt that every word of the Bible is literally true.

And thanks for the thoughtful reply.


I agree with you. I, for one, have NEVER thought that every single word was true. I think I may have made this clear in previous posts. I would doubt that ANY reasonably intelligent person would disagree with you there.


It is not just those verses that should give intelligent people pause. There is a large number of disgusting verses. For instance why do you suppose the fixation on virgins in this instruction of how to dispense with war captives?

Numbers 31:17-19
Quote:
Num 31:17 - Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18 - But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Num 31:19 - And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify [both] yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

Source for the full context, but context does not improve the stink.

I guess it is OK if you wash according to schedule. Is this instruction fit as a moral guide for the greatest book ever written?
0 Replies
 
watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2005 01:18 pm
BoGoWo wrote:
whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!

watch it! guide gog;

i was talking about using the same methodology of dealing with religion, as is currently used for their introduction to sex;

I WAS NOT PRAISING THE CURRENT SEX EDUCATION PARAMETERS!!!!


I didn't think you were...

I continue to support the opinions that I wrote in my previous post.
0 Replies
 
 

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