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I am new to A2K so forgive me if this has been discussed before, but here goes.

I was brought up in a very strict religious household, but by about my early teenage years I began to form my own views on religion. Despite what my parents believed and forced me to belief, I started to believe that religion is a crock of doo doo.

Here's my point.

Why is it that even some very intelligent people, tend to buy into religion.

I know a lot of people's response to this would be "fear", but if you and I can figure out that religion is nothing more than a primitive form of control, why can't some others who seem to be very intelligent people.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think I am that smart, quite the contrary I just don't understand how something that appears so obvious to me, can be ignored by persons who I feel have a superior intellect to mine.

I know this post may offend some religious people, but if you are the bright people that I am talking about, you will be able to respond intelligently, not angrily.

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here's one answer, known as Pascal's Wager. Pascal was once agnostic, like me, but became religious later on. I'm just paraphrasing his argument, but if God doesn't exist, there's no harm in believing in Him, but if He does exist and you don't believe, then you might end up in hell.

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fear
Why live shrouded in fear and guilt when you don't have to?

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well, another reason to believe in God is the Big Bang. what came before the Big Bang is unanswerable, probably, so one can call it God. the universe arising from nothing, is either a miracle or a mystery, depending on one's beliefs.

but i can't answer your question about fear & guilt, because i'm not a believer myself.

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good point
I hear what your saying about the beginning of existance, but just because the universe did not exist in the way that we perceive of it today does not mean that nothing existed at all.

We as people are made up of atoms and atoms are merely energy and information. Likewise the universe is made up of energy and information.

Because we cannot see something doesn't mean it does not exist (ie. gases like oxygen).

So to say that the universe came from nothing is not entirely true.

Anyway, if youu really look at my original post, it was not about belief in God, but about religion.

Thanks for your thoughts.

All points of view are welcome to me.

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banks wrote:

Why is it that even some very intelligent people, tend to buy into religion.

I know a lot of people's response to this would be "fear", but if you and I can figure out that religion is nothing more than a primitive form of control, why can't some others who seem to be very intelligent people.

The answer isn't "fear," it's "faith." In short, you have convinced yourself that people who have "bought into religion" are allowing themselves to be controlled. The reason it is "obvious" to you is because you lack faith. Had you faith in God, you would have a completely different viewpoint. "Faith" is what you lack, not intellect.

banks wrote:

Why live shrouded in fear and guilt when you don't have to?

Fair question, and as an unbeliever, one you should ask yourself.

banks wrote:

Because we cannot see something doesn't mean it does not exist (ie. gases like oxygen).

Indeed.

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You're assuming that everyone's experience of religion matches your own assessment. Some people (intelligent people) find that their faith is more than "a primitive form of control" and more than a life "shrouded in fear and guilt". Some find faith liberating, rewarding, and fulfilling--freedom to rise above materialism/the "rat race", fulfilling in terms of the sense of purpose it can provide (cf. "The Purpose-Driven Life" by Rick Warren), rewarding in terms of both "heaven" and having a life anchored by belief in absolutes, . . .
Within the Christian faith, there are numerous denominations that are not all about control and guilt. Many focus on service (both within and without their local church body) and peace with God, and they encourage people to think through and understand their faith.

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Banks: Welcome to A2k. Don't worry about repeating questions; new membership is what keeps this site vital regardless of how many times a topic is repeated.

The danger of inculcating children with literal religion is that when they grow up they either accept it or reject it totally. A third way of looking at religion is in the metaphorical sense. While it may seem ridiculous to believe in the Virgin Birth literally, another way to look at it is metaphorically as a spiritual rebirth, that is, a fundamental change in our outlook from a self-centered person concerned only with taking all one can, to an identity that respects other beings and creatures as ourselves. This is the Golden Rule, the basic principle of spirituality that is rarely practiced by fundamentalists. Spirituality is something experienced, not something foisted on us by religious dogma, and in my experience, belief is irrelevant.

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banks wrote:

Why live shrouded in fear and guilt when you don't have to?

lab rat said: Fair question, and as an unbeliever, one you should ask yourself.

That's the thing lab rat, I am not living in fear and guilt. I live a good life and I don't need the approval or comfort that some people seek in religion.

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Re: good point

Quote:

Anyway, if youu really look at my original post, it was not about belief in God, but about religion.

so it was. that's a good clarification. i realize there are a few who believe in God but not any particular religion. and conversely, the Unitarian faith is a religion that doesn't seem to have a particular God. (i'm no Unitarian either, so take this with a grain of salt)

Quote:

Thanks for your thoughts.

All points of view are welcome to me.

i couldn't put it any better myself.

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I think you answered that very well lab rat. The acceptance of religion has nothing to do with one's intelligence level. It has more to do with hope. One does not have to be controlled to have hope. After all....Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

When people, including intelligent people, speak of God fear, they are not speaking of being afraid of God... they are speaking about not wanting to disappoint God. There is a difference. They fear out of love, not love out of fear.

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Intrepid wrote:

When people, including intelligent people, speak of God fear, they are not speaking of being afraid of God... they are speaking about not wanting to disappoint God. There is a difference. They fear out of love, not love out of fear.

Says you.

My parents live in fear of God's wrath not disappointment. They practice their religion partially because they want to live a good life, but mostly because they fear burning for all eternity in hell.

If you choose to deny that some people continue to go to church because of an unhealthy fear of hell or God's wrath, then your being close minded.

I do however agree with you that there may be some people that live on the straight and narrow for the reasons you mentioned, but please, you have to admit that people's fear of hell plays a role.

And by the way, I don't believe in hell, so you can trash the rebuttal about my own fear of hell.

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So, are you just seeking validation, or what?

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validation
It would be nice for people to admit that their fear not their good intentions are what drive them to religion, but do I need you to validate my beliefs...no.

I just like to debate.

You do realize that is in part what this forum topic is for....don't you?

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banks wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
When people, including intelligent people, speak of God fear, they are not speaking of being afraid of God... they are speaking about not wanting to disappoint God. There is a difference. They fear out of love, not love out of fear.

[qhote]Says you.

Yes, I said that. I am not the supreme authority you know. Perhaps I should have not worded it so broadly as to say people...I should have said some people or even most people. I did not mean to imply all people.

[quoteMy parents live in fear of God's wrath not disappointment. They practice their religion partially because they want to live a good life, but mostly because they fear burning for all eternity in hell. [/quote]

That is their choice. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or if I agree with them. That is how they choose to accept it.

Quote:

If you choose to deny that some people continue to go to church because of an unhealthy fear of hell or God's wrath, then your being close minded.

I really must not have made myself very clear if you think that I am denying that some people have an unhealthy fear. That is now what I think.

Quote:

I do however agree with you that there may be some people that live on the straight and narrow for the reasons you mentioned, but please, you have to admit that people's fear of hell plays a role.

I am very pleased that we seem to agree on something :-) I do not disagree with the 2nd part of this statement. Just as your parents feel this way, so do many others.

[/quote]And by the way, I don't believe in hell, so you can trash the rebuttal about my own fear of hell.[/quote]

Again we agree. I don't believe in hell either. Therefore, you will not get a rebuttal from me about your fears, whatever they may be. There is no evidence in the scriptures that there is a hell as people describe it. Unless, of course you would conisder being left behind by God as hell.

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Re: validation

banks wrote:

It would be nice for people to admit that their fear not their good intentions are what drive them to religion, but do I need you to validate my beliefs...no.

I just like to debate.

You do realize that is in part what this forum topic is for....don't you?

The following quote is from your opening of this topic

Quote:

I know this post may offend some religious people, but if you are the bright people that I am talking about, you will be able to respond intelligently, not angrily.

I think that the responses you have received have been intelligent and well intentioned from everybody. I have not seen anger from anyone, but you are touching on it in your response to Tico

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It was already a bit hostile from the initial post. "Why don't you realize I'm right." Of course, it was a little more diplomatic than that, but only as a mask.

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banks wrote:

My parents live in fear of God's wrath not disappointment. They practice their religion partially because they want to live a good life, but mostly because they fear burning for all eternity in hell.

Better to refrain from sin out of fear of hell, than not to refrain from it at all. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" it is said. Obviously there must be Love too. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" is after all the most important commandment of all according to Scripture.

Quote:

If you choose to deny that some people continue to go to church because of an unhealthy fear of hell or God's wrath, then your being close minded.

Of course some people do that. The vast majority of people don't, though.

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Religion is very satisfying to the human mind. There's something reassuring about saying "this is the way things are for certain" that you just can't get from the theories and suppositions of science.

It's flexible enough to either give you a firm moral compass or allow you to justify your actions by appealing to a higher power conveniently located inside your head.

It comes in a variety of flavours ready to suit the individual personality.

It lets you be part of something larger than yourself.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's a great way to meet girls.

With all this going for it, is it any wonder religion is outselling hotcakes?

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Re: validation

Intrepid wrote:

I have not seen anger from anyone, but you are touching on it in your response to Tico

Quote:

The reason it is "obvious" to you is because you lack faith. Had you faith in God, you would have a completely different viewpoint.

Your right I may have approached anger, I'll own that, but for Tico to say that I would have a different viewpoint if I had faith is absurd. My viewpoint would be my viewpoint and possibly, quite different from yours.

I mean, what if I had faith in God, but not the God that is depicted in the Bible? Would my viewpoint remain the same?

Besides my point is more about the fact that people cling to the supposed word of God in the from of the Bible, but the Bible is written by man.

I am just not willing to put "faith" into something that is a man made creation for all we know. Since man's touch is on everything we know and perceive of the Bible, I just can't buy it, especially since it is loaded with contradictions that can only be answered by faith.

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intelligence

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