good points
You make some excellent points and although some of my writings may not convey respect, I do respect your opinion.
My opinion will always differ in this matter however and I stick to everything I said in my original post.
However
[/QUOTE]Yes, the bible was written by man. Every encyclopedia, dictionary, and every great literary work was written by man.
Quote:
I think there are very few other books that people base their entire life around and the difference between the Bible and many other books is irrefutable evidence.
Re: intelligence
banks wrote:Why is it that even some very intelligent people, tend to buy into religion.
Because intelligence and getting things ass-backward are not mutually exclusive.
Re: good points
Intrepid wrote:banks wrote:I think there are very few other books that people base their entire life around and the difference between the Bible and many other books is irrefutable evidence.
That is because the Bible is the greatest book ever written.
When ever I hear comments like that or such as the Bible provides a strong moral compass, I can't help but wonder if you have actually read it. How can a book written by unknowledgeable superstitious people that incorporates ancient tribal barbarities and nonsense be considered great or even slightly useful as guidance for modern civilization?
Well, to be fair, "do unto others etc." and "love thy neighbour as thyself" are pretty up there as moral compasses.
There is a lot of drek about stoning people to death and not eating hopping beasts, and condemning homosexuality, and women having to obey and and such that has not stood the test of time, of course....
So what you're saying Dlowan is that 98% of the bible gives the rest a bad name?
All faith presupposes an objective
something that is wanted but not yet, ever quite, had.
It harnesses our wishes and feeds on our hopeful dreams.
And thus religion gains tremendous power, but manipulates
and saps our soul. The great beautiful things that our nature
flows so freely with, become a factory of politics and social
manufacture, so that a few pontifs may gain power.
Who does the thinking? Who decides, calculates, and controls?
Why should the sheep follow and why should the shepherd own
the property of our dreams? Our truest selves
are unto purely ourselves.
Sorry. In this day and age,
so sorry that we cannot be free.
-CB-
Heh. And you thought religion was about
spirituality instead of politics and power?!?
There are many reasons for religion even in more intelligent people although it must be pointed out that the higher the education, the higher the probability of not being religious and the lower the IQ the less "sophisticated" and openminded the worldview becomes.
I think one of the least appreciated reasons for belief is family pride and self pride. If I'm a 50 year old scientist who's family have always been "good christians" and I have already devoted my life so far along similar lines, I've even made donations to the church ......then it's going to take a hellava strong nudge to make me see myself and all my ancestors as a bunch of gullible fools. If I begin to suspect we have been, then I'm more likely to overcompensate by being especially devout.
watchmakers guidedog wrote:So what you're saying Dlowan is that 98% of the bible gives the rest a bad name?
Er - well, YES! I suppose I AM saying that.
Lol!!!!!!
Quote: although it must be pointed out that the higher the education, the higher the probability of not being religious and the lower the IQ the less "sophisticated" and openminded the worldview becomes.
Do you have a source or "hard numbers" for this?
One of the media's favorite caricatures of Christians today is as undereducated and irrational "sheep". However, having participated in several Christian groups at secular universities (both as an undergrad and graduate student), and now looking around at the church congregations in my area, I'd say the proportion of intelligent, educated people in the Christian population is pretty similar to the general population. Also, given that 125 of the nation's first 127 colleges were founded by Christian organizations, I would say that historically, at least, the media caricature and your statement above have their origins more in prejudice than in fact.
lab rat I'm sure you'll appreciate I was not saying that all smart people are atheists and all dumb people are religious, my point was less obtuse.
Surely it's obvious that more intelligent people would question what they are told to believe than less intelligent ones, but you are right to ask me to justify my reckless claim.
I don't have the "hard numbers" to hand although I have seen them on paper. I'll see what I can find and get back to you.
Ahhh paydirt......
1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."
2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward
atheism."
3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, aged 10-16. Found a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ as measured by the Terman intelligence test.
4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "There is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability
There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence
"
5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 students, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."
6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."
7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.
8. Brown and Love, 1951
At the University of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. The mean test scores of non-believers was 119 points, and for believers it was 100. The non-believers ranked in the 80th percentile, and believers in the 50th. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."
9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."
10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the University of Wisconsin.
11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.
12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.
13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.
There was more but I didn't want to be greedy
Well Earl,
You seem to have defeated your own point. These 'studies' were conducted between 38 and 78 years ago. Don't you have anything recent?
Some of the cited studies included a couple hundred participants...what is the probability for error in that? Other studies showed no relationship once way or the other.
These 'studies' do not prove anything about your claims that religious people are less intelligent than non-religious. I don't think that you have proven yourself to be more intelligent than any of the folks that have replied to your thread.
You seem to take your hypothesis from one area to another as though you are searhing for something in which you can be proven right. Benjamin Disraeli once said, in a speech, that "It is much easier to be critical than correct." Alexander Pope once said, "Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed."
And then there was Edmund Burke who said, "The writers against religion, whilst they oppose every system, are wisely careful never to set up any of their own."
I can only hope that you did not insult the intelligence of the intelligent believers whose faith will remain unwavering.
I will leave you with the words of Thomas Traherne. "All men see the same objects, but all men to not equally understand them. Intelligence is the tongue that discerns and tastes them."
As I said Intrepid..there was more.....I didn't want to paste everything so I stopped...the studies didn't. I'm not actually that worried about this but figures were asked for so figures I got. Here's just a little more though since you're so keen....
14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37 percent of Christians, 58 percent of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.
15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.
16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).
17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. They reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's."
.......INSERT MANY MORE STUDIES HERE.......
Conclusion
The consensus here is clear: more intelligent people tend not to believe in religion. And this observation is given added force when you consider that the above studies span a broad range of time, subjects and methodologies, and yet arrive at the same conclusion.
This is the result even when the researchers are Christian conservatives themselves. One such researcher is George Gallup. Here are the results of a Fall 1995 Gallup poll:
Percentage of respondents who agreed with the following statements:
Religion is "very important in their life" // Religion can"answer all or most of today's problems"
Attended college 53 percent // 58 percent
No college 63 percent // 65 percent
And yes there is more, but I don't feel the need to go digging any further.
I would like to see 'religion' treated more or less like sex; it would be banned from the lives of children until they reach the 'age of consent' (considered to be the age at which they can as young adults, make up their own minds, and make rational choices).
Unfortunately biology only assists in keeping sex 'under wraps' through childhood (except for the vilest of offensive adult demands), but no such 'protection' exists for keeping the minds of children open to seek out the truth, rather than 'learn' it.
[given the choice.................]
Eorl wrote:lab rat I'm sure you'll appreciate I was not saying that all smart people are atheists and all dumb people are religious, my point was less obtuse.
Surely it's obvious that more intelligent people would question what they are told to believe than less intelligent ones, but you are right to ask me to justify my reckless claim.
...
I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.
Ticomaya wrote:I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.
In a universe where everything occurs purely by chance, does it make sense to thing that the lives of one small band of apes are guided and protected by an evanescent, omnipotent creator, that itself had no beginning, or creator.
[i'll opt for chance, thank you.]
