mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:52 am
Ticomaya wrote:
I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.


Hesitating to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident is a long way from believing in the ancient writings of unknowledgeable superstitious Hebrews.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 10:06 am
mesquite wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.


Hesitating to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident is a long way from believing in the ancient writings of unknowledgeable superstitious Hebrews.


They were knowledgeable enough to have writing :-

Do you also dismiss the writings of Socrates (469-399 BC); Homer (6th century BC) and countless other ancient writers that wrote other than for the bible? Is is just the biblical writers that you dismiss as unknowledgeable and superstitious? Are you refering to the Old Testament or New Testament or both? Or, are you just referring to the fact that some of these people were Hebrews?
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 10:13 am
Eorl wrote:

Conclusion

The consensus here is clear: more intelligent people tend not to believe in religion. And this observation is given added force when you consider that the above studies span a broad range of time, subjects and methodologies, and yet arrive at the same conclusion.


you certainly compiled an impressive list of studies in support of your conclusion. however, i wonder how many of them controlled for social class? ie. if wealthier people tend to be less religious and more successful academically, then at best one can conclude that either poorer or less intelligent people tend to believe in religion. may i remind you of marx's observation that religion is the opiate of the masses?

incidentally, i'm an agnostic on this question, but from personal experience, i've encountered high intelligence in both devout & atheist people, and everyone in between; i also think high intelligence is uncommon in general, and if we're talking about IQ scores, it's not all that important. as the late Richard Feynmann observed, probably tongue in cheek, "Winning a Nobel Prize is no big deal, but winning it with an IQ of 124 is really something." obviously, a Nobel is a much bigger deal than a Mensa membership.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:11 am
Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.


Hesitating to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident is a long way from believing in the ancient writings of unknowledgeable superstitious Hebrews.


They were knowledgeable enough to have writing :-

Do you also dismiss the writings of Socrates (469-399 BC); Homer (6th century BC) and countless other ancient writers that wrote other than for the bible? Is is just the biblical writers that you dismiss as unknowledgeable and superstitious? Are you refering to the Old Testament or New Testament or both? Or, are you just referring to the fact that some of these people were Hebrews?


I am speaking of Knowledge about the world around them, about the cause of weather patterns, earth quakes, eclipses, the movement of sun moon and stars, all sorts of natural events that an ancient and superstitious people would attribute to gods. The myths were carried in oral tradition long before writing was developed.

Most ancient cultures invented gods to help explain the world around them. The Hebrews were not unique in this respect.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:14 am
mesquite wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I believe to be as obvious that more intelligent people would hesitate to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident. I think it is true that both intellegent and unintelligent folks would indeed question what they are told, but not necessarily reject same based on their level of intelligence alone.


Hesitating to believe that everything was created by cosmic chance or accident is a long way from believing in the ancient writings of unknowledgeable superstitious Hebrews.


They were knowledgeable enough to have writing :-

Do you also dismiss the writings of Socrates (469-399 BC); Homer (6th century BC) and countless other ancient writers that wrote other than for the bible? Is is just the biblical writers that you dismiss as unknowledgeable and superstitious? Are you refering to the Old Testament or New Testament or both? Or, are you just referring to the fact that some of these people were Hebrews?


I am speaking of Knowledge about the world around them, about the cause of weather patterns, earth quakes, eclipses, the movement of sun moon and stars, all sorts of natural events that an ancient and superstitious people would attribute to gods. The myths were carried in oral tradition long before writing was developed.

Most ancient cultures invented gods to help explain the world around them. The Hebrews were not unique in this respect.


If you have actually read the bible, you would see that it is much more than weather patterns, earthquakes, eclipses, sun movements and whether the moon is yellow, orange or blue.

This is a very weak arguement for the validity of the bible or the intelligence of those who wrote it.
0 Replies
 
turtlette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:19 am
bm
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:22 am
Eorl wrote:
Ahhh paydirt......

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward… atheism."

<extra lines removed by Intrepid to conserve space - does not alter context>



I found the source of your pay dirt. This website tries to argue that non-religious people are smarter than religious people, and that this should be a valid criterion for determining the truth! This is such an amusing argument, because to argue it is to demonstrate the opposite of the case.

It's really just an appeal to authority, and is aimed at bolstering the fragile ego of certain atheist types, and to dismiss thinking so that one need not engage in such a messy pursuit. Nevertheless it is instructive to examine the data. The Site is found here: , Here:http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

They present several studies which supposedly show that the more intelligent students tend to be nonbelievers, and so forth. Unfortunately, most of the studies are so briefly summarized that we cannot really get a clear picture of exactly what they do find. Oddly enough, at least half of them seem to come to a conclusion the opposite of that argued by the site and by Earl.

We really have to ask ourselves, in studying students, especially freshmen in college, they are getting kids when they are the most rebellious? For those in early college they are going off to school for the first time, away from home, no longer under the strictures of Mom and Dad, they tend to rebel against Mom and Dad. It's a time of experimentation. Naturally we should expect to find that bright kids are experimenters, that they are willing to try new ideas.

Secondly, how long did these kids remain unbelieving? How many are no in middle or even old age having had a life time of religious commitment gained in graduate school or beyond? Not a single one of these studies gave any indication of being longitudinal! That is extremely important, because it makes sense that students in late high school and early college will be rebellious and more inclined to question their upbringing. How many of them were actually still atheists 20 or 30 years latter? We don't know and not a single one of the studies even tried to find out. For all we know the vast majority of them might have become believers in 10 years out of college! In fact we have good reason to suspect that this is the case; after they got married and started raising families, they probably began to believe again, and this seems to be the pattern. That conclusion would also be supported by the quotation form Hoge above, the shock of leaving home, encountering atheist professors, dealing for the first time with serious challenge of new ideas could for time lead the unwary into doubt, but latter they recover.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:27 am
Intrepid wrote:
If you have actually read the bible, you would see that it is much more than weather patterns, earthquakes, eclipses, sun movements and whether the moon is yellow, orange or blue.

This is a very weak arguement for the validity of the bible or the intelligence of those who wrote it.


Right, a very large part of it is about wars and killing, human and animal sacrifice, slavery and discrimination.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:28 am
mesquite wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
If you have actually read the bible, you would see that it is much more than weather patterns, earthquakes, eclipses, sun movements and whether the moon is yellow, orange or blue.

This is a very weak arguement for the validity of the bible or the intelligence of those who wrote it.


Right, a very large part of it is about wars and killing, human and animal sacrifice, slavery and discrimination.


Could you please provide specifics? Thanks
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:32 am
mesquite wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
If you have actually read the bible, you would see that it is much more than weather patterns, earthquakes, eclipses, sun movements and whether the moon is yellow, orange or blue.

This is a very weak arguement for the validity of the bible or the intelligence of those who wrote it.


Right, a very large part of it is about wars and killing, human and animal sacrifice, slavery and discrimination.


Those things happened then, and happen now.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:36 am
here's what the LORD said in Leviticus:

25:44
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

25:45
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

25:46
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 04:58 pm
Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
If you have actually read the bible, you would see that it is much more than weather patterns, earthquakes, eclipses, sun movements and whether the moon is yellow, orange or blue.

This is a very weak arguement for the validity of the bible or the intelligence of those who wrote it.


Right, a very large part of it is about wars and killing, human and animal sacrifice, slavery and discrimination.


Could you please provide specifics? Thanks


There is so much I hardly know where to begin and I am short of time right now. Frank laid it out quite well a while back in this post.
Frank Apisa wrote:
But if we are to take the words of the Bible to make a judgment about whether the book is more likely a recitation of what GOD...THE MAKER OF EVERYTHING (should such a God exist)...feels and wants…

...or...

...a compilation of what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one...

...we've got to look at the words with an open mind.


Here are a couple of for-instances:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves." Leviticus 25:44ff

Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13


Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?



"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?



"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?



"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9


Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?




"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?



Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]

Keeping an open mind…does this sound more like something GOD would say…or what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?



Do you see a pattern developing here????


Then of course we have a little incest to spice things up.

Genesis 19:31-36
Quote:
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.


Then of course we have the well known major mass murder events such as whooping up on the Egyptians then killing all their first born.

We have the super mass murder story about Noah and the flood which destroyed all living things save what was on the ark.

We have the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah and turning Lot's wife to a pillar of salt for the terrible sin of "looking back".

For more spice we have the porn stories in the Song of Solomon, but that is enough for now.
0 Replies
 
banks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 05:46 pm
nicely done
Nice post Mesquite. I know it was copied, but if Intrepid has got anything to say to this, I can't wait to hear it.
0 Replies
 
watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 08:36 pm
BoGoWo wrote:
I would like to see 'religion' treated more or less like sex; it would be banned from the lives of children until they reach the 'age of consent' (considered to be the age at which they can as young adults, make up their own minds, and make rational choices).
Unfortunately biology only assists in keeping sex 'under wraps' through childhood (except for the vilest of offensive adult demands), but no such 'protection' exists for keeping the minds of children open to seek out the truth, rather than 'learn' it.

[given the choice.................]


This would possibly work better than supressing sex. The problem with surpressing sex is that it's stupidly pointless. It's already in their head and tangled up in their DNA. They hit puberty and suddenly their pituitary gland dumps vast reams of sex-guides into their subconcious.

I think that children should be taught about sex. (ewww, not that way). So that when biology strikes they'll be prepared to understand it. The raw animal instinct of sexual reproduction exploding out into a vacuum in the childs knowledge could have bad results, rather than the instincts merely granting acceptance of the strange intellectual concepts they've been taught.

On the other hand I don't believe that religion is already "in there". If you seal religions out then while the child may invent some religious concepts here and there it'll be much more effective than trying to keep sex out of the brain.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:28 pm
Re: nicely done
banks wrote:
Nice post Mesquite. I know it was copied, but if Intrepid has got anything to say to this, I can't wait to hear it.


Once I have an opportunity to properly read it....I will.

A quick scan of the post seems to indicate that a few "juicy" passages have been extracted to try to put forth an intelligent reason for people that have a belief system not to be intelligent. The usual ramblings of someone who does not have facts to support a position...try to overwhelm them with volumous text.

I see that you are now sitting on the sidelines, Banks, and hoping that someone can baffle the rest of us with rhetoric for you.

Let me get back to you Surprised
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:32 pm
Why do people so readily misunderstand statistics?

I'll repeat again: I was not saying that there are no smart christians or stupid atheists.

I simply proposed that the more educated you are and the higher your IQ, the less religious you are likely to be. I was asked for figures to back this up, so I went and found some. I even included some results that found no measureable difference. Does anyone have any stats that find the opposite?

I wasn't saying that being an atheist makes me smarter than you christians, but by making that assumption you may have proved it true nonetheless. Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:35 pm
Intrepid, would you mind taking a stab at explaining how Leviticus 25:44-46, which i quoted earlier, did not condone the institution of slavery at the time it was uttered? Time permitting, that is. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:39 pm
Eorl wrote:
Why do people so readily misunderstand statistics?


Because they are so frequently used as a method for reinforcing lies? Thus the main time people see them is when they are misused. Look in the media some time and you'll see thousands of misused statistics. Am I the only one who thinks statistics should be a required course of study in high school?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:45 pm
Nup I'm with you wg

You'd be amazed at the answers you get from highly intelligent people about the odds of a flipped coin.

eg. I've just tossed 6 heads in a row, what are chances I'll toss another head? 50/50 of course. But I'm always outvoted on that one !!??!!
0 Replies
 
watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 09:55 pm
Eorl wrote:
eg. I've just tossed 6 heads in a row, what are chances I'll toss another head? 50/50 of course. But I'm always outvoted on that one !!??!!


You're probably getting people thinking of the probability of getting 7 heads in a row, I sometimes make mistakes like that if I'm really not concentrating. I've always found most statistics are common sense but then again my dad used to teach statistics before he retired so I suppose I've grown up around probability.
0 Replies
 
 

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