The Effectiveness of Debate

Change their minds? Not sure but I'd guess not often. You can however, often get a better understanding of the other side's view through a real debate.

Most "debates" aren't really debates at all though.

Heh heh. Too true, too true.

Question is though, in getting a better idea of the other side's view, does it eventually affect your own view?

Sure. I may find that what I think is a practical solution to a problem/issue has some limitations of effects that I hadn't considered so I either have to incorporate those into my "solution" or change my solution.

I have changed my mind on a few issues either because of information presented that I had been unaware of, or seeing something from another perspective. Even if I do not change my mind, I might have more tolerance for the opposing position once I understand it.

That's a good point, Terry -- I've often gone from "what kind of total idiot could possibly think that..." to "I disagree, but I get it."

Okay, so the general feeling seems to be that this sort of debate is more about exposure to new ideas than really convincing or being convinced.

Would you say that you've ever had a major idea or precept altered significantly by this exposure? Think carefully about this one, I don't mean just learning why someone thinks a certain way, I mean a radical change, something which really impacted you. If so, I'd really be interested to hear the details if any of you would care to share them. You know, what the argument was, how you were convinced, that sort of thing.

Probably the most significant for me was finding out that there is no historical evidence that God had a son who lived on Earth. The alleged miracles and crucifixion of Jesus Christ were not recorded by any eyewitnesses or contemporary historians, Jesus did not write down one single word himself, everything in the Bible about him is hearsay, and the "prophecies" he supposedly fulfilled (such as the virgin birth) were taken out of context, edited, or were not actually messianic prophecies at all. I got this information from Freethinker on Abuzz and did my own research to try to refute it, but found out he was right. It changed my whole perspective on organized religion and Christianity.

What was truly mind-boggling is that people have known this for centuries but religious leaders still mislead their congregations into believing that Truth is being imparted to them when it is all based on lies. If it were not for being involved in religious debates, I would have gone on believing what I had been taught as a child.

Heh, you've got a good one there. I heard somewhere that certain words in the bible about God refering to "him" in a feminine manner have been "mistranlated". I don't think it actually says "Her" anywhere, but things like likening the creation of the world to the labour of a woman in child-birth aint in the English translation.

Over the last 15 years, my politics changed from Greenish liberalism into fairly strong libertarianism, and my religion changed from moderate Lutheran to atheist. Most of the change happend when I debated my views with intelligent opponents and followed wherever the most persuasive arguments led me.

So overall, debating has changed my point of view a lot, even though the contribution of any one debate was small. I don't think I could point to any single debate that gravely changed my mind. Online-and offline didn't make much of a difference to me in this regard.

How do I install Windows XP?
well u asked for some1 whos new so u get me. I feel bad for ya. Well as for does discussion change people's ideas, yes and no. If you truly beleive in something nothing can alter that beleif but very VERY few people truly beleive in anything, most are just stubborn. As for an example I won't get specific but I was having a debate with my philosophy teacher about whether knowledge had to be imperical to have any truth. Needless to say he took my ideas and twisted them till i submitted but he did change my ideas. And as for the deeper question here which I believe is, "does debate serve any good in the overall scheme of things?" I don't believe it does because though you can convince other people who are willing to think about the validity of their beleifs most people will simple brush you off or say you are a radical to justify thier stupidity. So yes debate can change peoples beleifs but not everyones.

This is an interesting question.

Whether I was swayed from my opinion or not in the past depended largely on my knowledge about the subject. I can;t recall specifics, but there have been a couple of times when people have changed my ideas and believes through solid and logical arguments, showing mefacts I didn;t know before or hadn;t taken into consideration. One topic in particular has to do with my believe in the death penalty. Another has been the main cause I think of me being an agnostic now, instead of an atheist.
I come from a family of fairly intelligent and very very stubborn people.
This doesn't help, a lot of the times we argue/debate about a topic we finally agree to disagree and leave it at that. I DO however, value a debate.
For one, I find it highly entertaining and stimulating to either listen to or debate with intelligent people regarding serious and interesting topics. Second, I do believe that there is strong argument to be made for arguments along the way of Thesis - antithesis leading to synthesis.
I will therefor seek to defend a view sometimes contradictionary to my own in order to hear good arguments supporting my own ideas, if you know what I mean. It will lead to a deeper understanding of the subject.
Thirdly, it's a good way to get to know where certain people you call friend stand on certain issues. In other words, you get to know them better. Of course, this isn't necessarily the best way to get to know your friends, but it does help.
Fourthly, debating helps you to structure and define your arguments, to present a solid case pleading in favor of your point of view.
Fifhtly and finally, it gives you something to do on those dark, stormy winter nights. And since it's a nice, sunny summer day right here, I'm going to excuse myself and entertain my cats with a haircomb... The beasts manage to get their fur all over the house if I don't comb them on a regular basis.

Naj

I have had my mind changed on many topics through debate. I would never admit that to the person I am debating of course, but throughout the discourse you get to see what makes a person think about a topic and sometimes they can explain it in such a way that really allows you to see it the way they do. Other times it's just a shouting and shoving match. It's all good.

I have learned more from debate than from any schooling.

What is obvious in these debates - especially in some forums - is that everyone has their own version of Ultimate Reality and that in defining it, the almost metaphysical Testaments of science are even more invoked than those of religion. In some ways, it's alot like the scholastic debates of the Middle Ages only in our age religion has been redefined to include science or vice versa. Actually it's not incorrect to say that Scholasticism was a very potent precursor to the scientific revolutions of the 16th and 17th centuries because of the stringent logic required for debate especially in resolving very complex and abstract issues. It only proves it takes as much brain power to be brilliantly wrong as to be right-on. It's the same exercise in thinking or debating - which is good.

Thamks to all for your interesting replies. I especially liked najmelliw's as it paralelled my own view point in a few aspects (I have been known to take on the role of devil's advocate on ocassion, or even simply to expound a certain viewpoint simply in order to explore it's potential).

Craven, you and me both, buddy, you and me both.

Not Too Swift, I like your statement that it takes as much brain power to be brilliantly wrong as to be right on. I'm thinking of pinching that for my signature

Oh and Kenny, if you can even convince just a couple of people, doesn't that make it worth while?

Debating rarely accomplishes much. It certainly does not change the minds of people, except in rare cases. For me its only value is that it forces me to look at my own views more carefully. But I have yet to change my basic assumptions because of the opposing assumptions of others. When I do make changes they are usually in response to some variation on my position expressed by people with generally similar basic assumptions.

I altered my opinion - or more correctly began to modifiy my opinion - just this morning with a post by nimh. Usually I don't notice such instances as lightbulb moments at the time; quietly stated opinions occasionally accrete to fresh judgement in my view of a matter. Berating, mocking, challenging wordfare tends to get in the way of this process.. but not always.

ossobuco, would you care to share what this post was about? Just curious.

That is a significant accomplishment and your distaste (based on admirable personality traits) should not cause you to diminish the accomplishment.