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Ecowater ECR 3500..Good Buy?....H20_MAN?

 
 
Reply Wed 10 Oct, 2007 01:15 am
Well Water
Fe 2.5ppm (ECR 3500 handles up to 5ppm)
Hardness 22grains

Told that on well water can program ECR 3500 to do double backwash and given price of

ECR 3500 $1695 + tax
ERO R350 $549 + tax

Thoughts on system and price before I purchase?
Thanks,
Saline Solution.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 12,546 • Replies: 20
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Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Oct, 2007 05:42 am
Go to
www.kenmorewater.com
www.mortonsalt.com
www.gewater.com
and see if you can tell the difference between any of them and the ER whatever. They even look alike. That's because they are all made by Ecowater.

I say the Ecowater brand is a glorified over priced Kenmore etc. that you can buy for half the price you are quoted, much more reduced if on sale but... from a local dealer $1700 installed isn't bad.

Well until you compare it to say a correctly sized two tank softener for your house and family size and their peak demand flow rate. You'll find all the Ecowater stuff is smaller, usually less than a 1 cuft volume of resin. So for a correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 or Fleck control valve for the same $1700 from a local dealer including installation, there isn't much comparison.

Or, buy the Clack WS-1 or Fleck online and install it yourself in about 3 hours for less than half the local dealer's installed price and install it yourself or hire a plumber to install it for a few hundred dollars and pocket maybe $500 in savings.

You can buy an excellent RO (50 gal/day TFC etc.) from web sites or big box stores etc. for less than $200.

About the only difference between the ER whatever and the Kenmore etc. is the ER has a ceramic disk instead of the plastic one in all the big box store brands and the North Star, a two tank model using the same control valve, usually sold through plumbing and pump supply houses. All teh Ecowater stuff uses the same control valve except I'm told that the GE has a different motor.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Oct, 2007 06:31 am
Re: Ecowater ECR 3500..Good Buy?....H20_MAN?
19. Avoid a salesperson who spends a lot of time disparaging the competition.

Saline Solution wrote:
Well Water
Fe 2.5ppm (ECR 3500 handles up to 5ppm)
Hardness 22grains

Told that on well water can program ECR 3500 to do double backwash and given price of

ECR 3500 $1695 + tax
ERO R350 $549 + tax

Thoughts on system and price before I purchase?
Thanks,
Saline Solution.


Welcome to A2K SS,

I want to know the Ph and why a double backwash is needed before I can say more.

Is installation included in the price?
0 Replies
 
Saline Solution
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Oct, 2007 07:32 am
Re: Ecowater ECR 3500..Good Buy?....H20_MAN?
H2O_MAN wrote:
19. Avoid a salesperson who spends a lot of time disparaging the competition.

Saline Solution wrote:
Well Water
Fe 2.5ppm (ECR 3500 handles up to 5ppm)
Hardness 22grains

Told that on well water can program ECR 3500 to do double backwash and given price of

ECR 3500 $1695 + tax
ERO R350 $549 + tax

Thoughts on system and price before I purchase?
Thanks,
Saline Solution.


Welcome to A2K SS,

I want to know the Ph and why a double backwash is needed before I can say more.

Is installation included in the price?


I don't know the PH, so I will need to do a test myself on that. The installation is included in the price I was quoted. The double backwash comment came from the sales person but he stated that would be up to the consumer if during the install process.

I see this forum is lively with product philosophies on these water treatment systems. I can tell each one of you has many years of experience in this industry by your comments. Being a newbie to this decision/purchasing cycle, I appreciate all the input.

Thanks,
Lou
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 07:40 am
Quote
" You can buy an excellent RO (50 gal/day TFC etc.) from web sites or big box stores etc. for less than $200. "

Big Box ROs are one of the cheapest ROs available and carry NO WARRANTY on the membranes and a very limited warranty on the whole unit. None are not certified NSF (except maybe specific parts like the holding tank) as a working unit and many aspire to achieve a mere 80% rejection. That is not to say the water will not be improved in one fashion or another, but clearly not what I would recommend, let alone label as "excellent".

In fact, I have rarely ever found any water specialist, even a competent plumber, recommending the Big Box avenue for water treatment...unless they were buying and then over charging for an install, or some other alternative agenda.

Be aware of claims of membrane production capacities as whether or not they are claiming laboratory testing conditions or 'real-life' production rates, which can be vastly different. An experienced, knowledgable, and competent water specialist will always differentiate production capacity characteristics as not to hoodwink a consumer. Most Big Box ROs actually produce between 12-15 gallons per day under normal household water pressure and temperature.

There is a reason why they are sold off a shelf by clerks that know nothing of the product and from a store that can't service it and usually don't want to install it. They are geared for consumers who know little about water treatment or probably care even less. Not really very good advice, in my opinion.

Quote
"About the only difference between the ER whatever and the Kenmore etc. is the ER has a ceramic disk instead of the plastic one in all the big box store brands and the North Star, a two tank model using the same control valve, usually sold through plumbing and pump supply houses. All the Ecowater stuff uses the same control valve except I'm told that the GE has a different motor."

I am not sure of this detail with Ecowater products. Therefore, I won't assume something being the truth as being told by an unqualified source--because that would make me look foolish.

I do know that a very similar claim was made by the same individual about Kinetico valves as a "fact" in an attempt to undermine a competitor's product and, was, 'in fact", completely false. Thus the grain of salt...

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 10:54 am
Andy, you can quote me using my name, it's ok. Really.

Otherwise you look a bit stupid for not knowing how to quote correctly. And it takes less time compared to editing all the quote stuff out. Suck it up and go for, you'll feel better. Really, you will.

I was referring to Watts, made by Flowmatic and other RO manufacturers, what I sell when I sell an RO; which is very rarely due to the fact that next to no one has a proven need for one. ESPECIALLY city water users!!

They are Industry standard through and through with off the shelf standard parts including membranes made by the industry leaders; Osmonics, Dow etc..

If you were honest, you'd say you are talking about Kinetico's newest and latest proprietary and at roughly $1000+ highly overpriced and certified RO.

On average, what do the replacement cartridges and membranes cost?

Do you propose them to many people? Do any of those people have a proven need for an RO, like lead, nitrates, nitrites, arsenic, etc.?

BTW, in case you have forgotten, I say certification is nothing more than a marketing tool used by companies to enable their dealer network/sales force to overcharge for their products by scaring the consumer into believing the same type but not certified product won't work.
0 Replies
 
Renae WV
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 10:48 am
Water System
Just last night, I had a guy come test my water. I too had iron of 2.5 and hardness of 5, ph of 7.0. The guy suggested the ECR 3500 along with an air tank to airiate the water before it goes into the filter. If I rent the system, it's $85 per month, installation $402.80. If I buy the system it would cost $4720. + tax + $402.80 installation. Financing the system for 60 months at $109.82 per month. He explained that you can only buy the chemicals from him. The charge to service the system per year is $180. if I buy and it cost nothing if I rent. Each year they come in and change the resin in the tank. I asked the man how many gallons of water is the tank good for? He gave me the run around and didn"t answere my question. Through my own research, I've found the resin is only good for so many gallons of water filtration then it stops working. That's why you have to replace it. I've had serveral dealers say the system is good for 10-20 years. In my experience that is not true, the tank yes, resin no. The more iron the quicker the resin wears out. If you buy it, everything will be under warranty except the resin. That's the catch. Now, having said that, you can buy replacement resin over the web. Depending on the type, $50-120., along with directions on how to change the resin.
I found a system on Sears website that would take care of iron and maganese up to 30ppm for about 1,000. the ECR 3500 is rank for upto 10ppm. I suggest you do some research on how many gallons the ECR 3500 is good for before replacement. If the guy that was here last night would come and replace my resin once a year if I rent it to keep his system in good working order, that tells me the system is good for one year with a family of 3.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 11:44 am
Re: Water System
Renae WV wrote:

I too had iron of 2.5 and hardness of 5, ph of 7.0. The guy suggested the ECR 3500 along with an air tank to airiate the water before it goes into the filter.

Each year they come in and change the resin in the tank.


I see no reason to replace the softener resin every year.

Is the iron - Ferrous or Ferric?
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 12:30 pm
Whew! that was some quote!

I rarely hear of a new system sale that didn't include the install unless there were many other aspects to consider, i.e., replacing galvanized pipes, new pressure tanks, well sanitation.

The aeration system before the softener is a technique to handle high iron if the seller feels his softener is unable to do so alone. How is the air injected, air pump or venturi? You would typically need a gas-off tank and a backwashing (multi-media?) filter prior to the softener.

This of course would cause the softener to work less hard, but the more reason why it would NOT need to be rebedded every year. There are too many strange things about this estimate.

Was your financing with GE Capital, or American General? What was your APR?

Anyway, at 2.5 ppm iron, it should never be a bother for a properly sized softener and your resins should never be change out on a yearly basis unless there were petroleum or some other unusual contaminate in your water. Twin tank systems may have some benefits with handling high iron.

I am wondering how your research determined that resins are good for so many gallons before needing to be changed. Naturally, there is a shelf-life to all water treatment media, some is very short and others can last for decades. Can you give us some reference points on that research?

And, a $180 per year service call for something I find unusual makes it even more puzzling. Some companies include this at sale to keep money coming for years = $1800 in ten years times how many customer makes for a steady income.

There are certain types of equipment that can need yearly check ups--UV, chemical feed systems, aeration systems, public water treatment, for example, but a softener, a good one, should be included there.

If you actually believe that the Kenmore can handle up to 30 ppm of iron, then, well, I'll just leave it there....Kenmore, Sears and Whirlpool models are not system tested and certified by WQA or NSF to match those numbers, so buyer beware.

The ERR3500 has been tested and that is why the ranking is more in touch with reality.

Have you contacted other companies?

ANdy Christensen, CWS-II
0 Replies
 
Renae WV
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:29 pm
Water System
After I posted the message I went back to Sears and found they didn't have the 30ppm unit, $799 up to 10ppm. I have been researching for days. I've checked lowes ect. Some web based companies will give you the water filtration capacity of their resin tanks. I assume it's based on iron content and gallons used. You can type in resin replacement media in a search engine that leads to all kinds of info.

I have clear water Iron. don't know the technical name. The aeration unit staight from fact sheet. "The Air Pump produces up to 100 psi. The Air pump is an innovative, compact, quiet sourc of oil-less compressed air. Air is introduced on the outlet side of the pressure tank which prevents precipitated iron from building up in the pressure system."

I have had this water tested by other companies and I know the iron is higher than 5pmm. The guy didn't tell me who the finaince company was or the APR. The home I live in is a second generation home (70 years)and the family has spent thousands on differnt company water systems.
They have all failed to work with in 2 years.

I had another quote last week $2,984 at %14-18 interest for 60 months.
Completely different system "Hague" that uses potasium chloride instead of sodium chloride. The price included installation.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 08:31 pm
This is a prime example why I say that buying an Ecowater is a rip off.

Another is that the basic difference between an Ecowater and a Kenmore, GE, Whirlpool, mortonsalt.com or North Star, all made by Ecowater, is a ceramic disc, some additional features in the computer chip and a couple thousand dollars...

Yu can buy as good or better online and install it yourself or hire a plumber for the price of the Kenmore you mentioned. I suggest a correctly sized and configured softener for your iron content, your family size and the SFR (service flow rate) the house requires. I suggest it have a Clack WS-1 control valve on it.

No softener requires annual check ups or resin replacement. Resin usually lasts 10-20 years. Even with iron and the use of resin cleaner. I think he means change the mineral in a turbidity filter after the air pump but... he is lying about your needing the air pump IF there is no H2S odor or other reason for it than removal of <3 ppm of iron.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 09:48 pm
EcoWater treatment equipment is excellent ~ your local dealer does not sound so excellent.

Is their an independent H2O specialist that uses Fleck valves in your area?
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 07:59 am
Of course there is a Fleck dealer there! And if you think Fleck is good, you'll love the Clack WS-1.

It is the latest improved version of the Fleck piston, seals and spacers design done by three ex Fleck engineers with some 72 years at Fleck. I'm told that the senior guy invented the Fleck 5600. And now some 35 years later it is the world's most popular control valve. I suggest that the Clack WS-1 will be its replacement; it is well on its way all around the world.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 11:05 am
Clack is a glorified Fleck - designed and engineered by Fleck.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 07:44 am
Yes, the Clack WS-1 is the latest improved version of the Fleck piston, seals and spacers design.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 08:26 am
Gary Slusser wrote:
Yes, the Clack WS-1 is the latest improved version of the Fleck piston, seals and spacers design.


Yes, the Clack WS-1 is nothing more than a glorified Fleck valve.
0 Replies
 
bang the drum
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Feb, 2008 01:38 pm
PRICE OF ERO 375 & ECR 3500
HI, HAVE BEEN READING YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ECO WATER ECR 3500 & ERO 375.
I WAS JUST QUOTED 3697.OO FOR BOTH HERE IN NORTHEAST ILLINOIS.
PAYING ABOUT 1000.00 MORE THAN YOUR STATED PRICE.
WHAT DO YOU I'M GETTING HOSED OR PRICES HAVE GONE UP SINCE OCT 07
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Feb, 2008 03:58 pm
EACH MARKET HAS IT'S COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
I HAVE SEEN THE SAME SYSTEM SELL FOR NEAR $6K.

KEEP IN MIND - THE PRICE IS NEGOTIABLE - GOOD LUCK.
0 Replies
 
Jids
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 12:52 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Ecowater units actually do a reverse-backwash, that is, they rinse the resin from the bottom up, as opposed to top down. This means that the resin does not get packed down, leaving small channels for water to flow through like what happens with a Brita after using it for a few days. If it washes from the bottom to the top, then it upsets the packed resin and stops it from settling down too much.
I used to have a North Star unit in my basement, and when the pressure went above ~100 psi the resin tank burst and I had to get my whole basement re-done. I put in an Ecowater unit and everything's been fine - I'm hoping that this tank doesn't burst as well.
Ecowater only uses the best parts for their units - other companies say that they want a system in a particular price range and Ecowater makes it to that price.
All in all, Ecowater units are amazingly good - they work well, they've got a great guarantee, and they only use the best-quality parts for their systems.
That sounds like the end of an essay. o.o
Gary Slusser
 
  0  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 10:58 am
@Jids,
Jids wrote:

Ecowater units actually do a reverse-backwash, that is, they rinse the resin from the bottom up, as opposed to top down. This means that the resin does not get packed down, leaving small channels for water to flow through like what happens with a Brita after using it for a few days. If it washes from the bottom to the top, then it upsets the packed resin and stops it from settling down too much.
I used to have a North Star unit in my basement, and when the pressure went above ~100 psi the resin tank burst and I had to get my whole basement re-done. I put in an Ecowater unit and everything's been fine - I'm hoping that this tank doesn't burst as well.
Ecowater only uses the best parts for their units - other companies say that they want a system in a particular price range and Ecowater makes it to that price.
All in all, Ecowater units are amazingly good - they work well, they've got a great guarantee, and they only use the best-quality parts for their systems.
That sounds like the end of an essay. o.o

All backwashing of all softeners or filters is done upflow.

And all softeners have at least one backwash, most good softeners actually have two (like Clack and Fleck valves), plus a final down flow rinse, except packed bed types that are usually upflow counter-current brined, and they don't backwash because there is no freeboard to expand the bed up into. Final rinse is downflow and is used to pack the bed so there can't be channeling.

Your North Star and Ecowater are in essence the same softener in a different configuration. And your Ecowater water has a ceramic disk and is a cabinet model. All plastic resin tanks will break if the water pressure goes to high; usually they have a 125 lb max operating pressure rating.

So you need a pressure regulator valve or to fix the one you have.

The best parts... you obviously don't know much about the water quality improvement industry and are repeating Ecowater's marketing hype. Ecowater makes all the tanks for all the various big box store brands (with minimal warranties) and they are exactly the same as in your Ecowater softener (possibly with a longer warranty). They are all interchangeable and are nonindustry standard and highly proprietary. Real tanks are nonproprietary and have 10 year warranties for the most common sizes and the larger tanks, usually sold in commercial establishments 5 yrs..
0 Replies
 
 

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