When has religion irked you personally and why?

Frank fix that post with the quote thingy mess. Looks like something I said - thanks!

Montana re your post of Jan13, 8:51

Phoenix re your post of Jan 13 8:53

Craven re your post of Jan 14 2:39 AM

And my post of Oct 12, 7:48 Which seemed to upset some normally reasonable people. (page 32 of this thread)

You have all agreed with the points that I was trying to make earlier in this thread. (Before Wilso went off the first time). Perhaps I could have articulated it better

Perhaps the football allegory was a bit overstated but I am very close to the violence done to our children by organized sports.

Both of my daughters (now in their late thirties) received "minor" injuries while playing high school girls basketball.

Both of these were knee injuries caused by violent twisting while supporting their weight on one leg while wearing "sticky" sneakers. (not an uncommon occurrence in basketball)

Both of these injuries have required surgical correction some thirteen and fifteen years after the incident.

Both of these injuries have resulted in both of my daughters being invalided out of the military services after 12 and 14 years service respectively. They both have a disability rating. (one a U.S. Army Major; one a USAF Technical Sergent) .

Since Craven mentioned his damaged friends as some indication of where he was coming from vis-a-vis his sensitivity to sexual abuse I thought it fair to mention a possible reason for my sensitivity regarding high school sports. I am biased, I am aware of it, and I am human.

akaMechsmith
I understand only to well about HS and College sports, I'm going to need knee replacements in a few years.

aka,

So by your reasoning you allowing your daughters to play basketball was akin to knowingly allowing them to be sexually molested.

If that doesn't sound right perhaps you will understand the objections to your earlier statements blaming parents for having kids in the Catholic church and calling football worse of a travesty than certain sexual abuses.

I think you already recognize the overstatement based on your last post, but to me, calling it an "overstatement" is an "understatement".

Wilso wrote:



I've re-read lots of this thread and have come to the conclusion that the only comment made so far that could form the basis for this comment of yours was one I made.


If you are referring to the comments I made earlier calling your attention to the fact that the statistics I've seen indicate that BY FAR the greatest percentage of pedophiles are fathers, uncles, and close family friends -- NOT MEMBERS OF THE CLERGY...

...then you are a jackass.

There is absolutely NO WAY WHATSOEVER that I was attempting in any way to accuse you of being guilty of such a disgusting crime.

PERIOD!

I most assuredly was trying to call your attention to the inconguity and irony of someone highlighting fatherhood and unclehood in defense of broad-brush anti-clergy, pompous nonsense -- when in fact, if your reasoning holds, fathers and uncles ought more correctly be held in contempt on this issue.

But you are way off base on your thesis -- and fathers and uncles should not be castigated or lumped together as threats to children any more than the clergy should.

There is plenty of blame to be heaped on the church, its priests and its bishops for what has happened and what has been allowed to happen. But this sanctimoneous nonsense you are spewing is way over the line.

In any case, there is NO GODDAM WAY I was accusing you of anything.


(EDIT: fixed the quote thingy Husker mentioned)

Sorry, Husker. I fixed it. (I think!)

YES Craven, it was. I was (I say "was" advisedly) STUPID. It does not sound right but thats the way it was. I have learned something on the last thirty years.

I suspected that allowing (forcing) growing children to play sports organized primarily for the benefit of adults was not necessarily in the kids best interests. BUT (this is my fault) I was too preoccupied with raising three teenagers (earning money-making payments) and I trusted the schools. My trust in the school system of Hampshire County WV has since been shown to have been misplaced.

I do blame the parents that use parochial schools. Considering the youthfulness of the parents of six year old children WE cannot expect them to KNOW this. Their trust in the Catholic Church has been misplaced. Therefore I (as a senior member of society) accept some of the blame.

I mentioned before though. The priests supervisor has no excuse whatever. The priest MAY be sick, The parents MAY be stupid, the children ARE innocent. Society is un aware. The bishop who (in this case) transferred a sick priest around thus adding to the extent and gravity of any damage that may have occurred is guilty. He has no excuse whatsoever and I would castigate him gleefully Terminally perhaps, He has violated the trust of Catholics, of children,of parents, of his priests, and of his society.

Sorry about your second point though. It is possible to do things with children that, in some circles, would be called abuse that are actually harmless. It is not possible to play tackle football without some risk of injury!
It is inherent in the game!

See "suggest a subject".

aka,

You'll have a hard time asserting that any activity has no risk for harm. Even your "harmless" sexual abuse.

The benefit of playing sports, especially for girls, has been shown in many studies. Here is a website I found with a quick Google search:

http://www.girlsnsports.com/benefits.html

Let me know if you want something more definitive.

I was on the soccer, basketball, x-country ski, and track teams. I had a stupid track coach who pushed us too hard (the whole "oxygen debt" concept that has since been called into question), but sports were my salvation in an especially difficult time in my life. I was never injured, still run whenever I have the chance.

Of course, there are the horror stories -- bad coaches, too much competition, etc. But high school sports were a hugely positive influence on my life, and studies indicate that I'm not the only one.

Szobe, I do not doubt for one minute that supervised excercise can be beneficial.

It is the "sports" that actually are intended to provide benefits to the adults concerned rather than the children that I am concerned with.

Stupid coaches, in my experience, are not rare. The coach is pressed to provide a winning team. He is not charged with providing the maximum benefits for the students. Can you imagine the coach at WVU or Notre Dame telling his team to go out there and play a good game and have a good time. No, he sends them out to "beat" the other team. Injuries are commonplace. What do we expect?

The coach wants to win. The players are told that the school wants them to win. The recruiter pays bonuses (now or later) to winners. The alumni build new stadiums for a winning team. The tickets pay for buses, airplane rides, and short skirts. A winning team increases the colleges prestige. And all this "responsibility" is placed on the backs of children who have not yet reached "the age of consent".

We have the laws of "statuary rape" for instance that are intended to prevent sexual exploitation of children that are to young to be able to give an "informed consent".

We have no such laws intended to prevent the physical exploitation of children who are to young to be able to give an informed consent.

Consequently they are exploited. And sadly it's often not to their benefit.

As a mechanic I feel that you have to look at causuality all the way. With the priests I feel all society deserves some blame. The same tracing down the causes of the failures of my daughters knees places the blame on a society that is perfectly willing to exploit children for some percieved benefit to adults.

No decent horseman who works with horses ever lets them pull as hard as they can until they have reached their full growth. The potential for damage is too high. We do not treat our kids that well.

Whether it's "rape" or physical mauling in the name of sport it's still a selfish abuse of children.

I disagree.

However, I was utterly flabbergasted by your latest post on the "Please suggest a topic" thread, and don't have any particular interest in debating with you.

Peace.

The sports thing seems to me a tangent, though it is surely analogous, and, besides, I usually like tangents. But that warrants a whole new Topic, I think.

I pay no attention to inferred or implied aspersions here, everybody I read here has ( ) together - well. usually.

CI, yes, people should speak up. No question.
Usually they don't. Not all of those who don't are
vile either. Though I have read lots of fiction/commentary/description of life in french villages within the vichy, and pre vichy time, and that leaves me watching us, now. This last sentence not posited as a political call to arms .... a musing.

Craven, This may have escaped you. There IS a difference between the potential harm that may be incurred in any activity.

But tackle football is inherently harmful due to the violence factor.
Sexual activity is not intrinsically harmful. Therefore it follows that if you are going to describe a sexual activity as harmful it is incumbent upon us to show harm. Not too hard to do but it had not been shown in the case that was mentioned.

Statuary rape implies harm but does not show that any harm was intended or percieved by the participants.

In the other case (mixing threads, sorry) one girl out of 350 or so participants felt "harmed". The professor is castigated, money is removed from the college, and lawyers made some money.

This is the difference in "perception of harm", and IMO why we have to be careful.

The difference in harm done is percieved very differently by society, and yourself, if it concerns genitalia rather than knees.

Sozobe,

You'd have to go back a lot further in the thread to get the gist of things.
I have some doubt that it's worth the trouble.

ossbuco, Yes the sports thing is a tangent, although the more I think about it the less I am inclined to think that my "overstatement" was overstated.


Best

It was not a quote. It was my statement and apparently needs explanation. Those abused, their families and friends are as much a part of the church as an abusing priest. These are the good people of the church who are acting to prosecute the criminals.

Many church leaders who acted negligently in the past have realised their error and have changed the behaviour. Parents who were trusting in the past are now much more careful. These reflect the changes which have occurred in other areas such as state schools.

I repeat my earlier statement that in the past our societies have shown reluctance to deal with these issues. This behaviour has gone unchecked. The past will not be undone even if every abuser is punished. I suggest we shall see less abuse in the future simply because we are now vigilant and willing to prosecute. It will unfortunately never disappear from the church or any other community of which children are a part.

gozmo that's a damn good point. And even if we exclude the cases of abuse (which presumably are the exception and not the rule) there will ultimately be more abused than abusers.

The abused and other concerned parties are, indeed, a part of the Church as well.

I think the fact that the abusers are often in positions of authority in the Church makes people neglect that.

Perhaps missed in all of this precisely is that the reason there are so many headlines and stories of late is the matter finally is being addressed proactively; its no longer in the closet or under the rug. If investigations and prosecutions were not occurring, we would not be hearing about them, would we?

The bottom line is this....

Everyone thinks their religion is the "right" way. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to, it's what is inside your mind.
If you don't have the knowledge of the Lord within you then you better start reading and praying.
We should respect what others debate about and let GOD be the judge.
One thing is for sure...the end is near and it won't matter what kind of ceremonies occured at a wedding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What will matter is ultimately the person you are and how you served the LORD while you were here on this evil sphere we call earth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The end is near, huh?

You a reservation on the next flight to heaven?


Just wonderin', you seem so well-informed.

like i commented....setanta.....

your wise crack i find amusing.....we'll let GOD be the ticket agent who decides which one of us is on that flight....ok :wink: