6
   

When has religion irked you personally and why?

 
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 08:16 pm
I agree...maliagar's thoughts on that would be welcomed, and I can't believe there is nothing...
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 08:56 pm
maliagar wrote:
What about the criterion of devoting your WHOLE life (and perhaps even your death) to those in desperate need?

[You really need to expand your horizons a bit and take a look at the way Mother Teresa and her followers deal with the sick and dying who are not Christian (the absolute majority of them)...]


I am well aware of her charitable work. It was, together with her religious ministry her devotion. Since the religious ministry is not something I think fair to use as a secular humanist's criteria I posit that one who has secular employment and dedicates their life to charity is just as eleemosynary. All such efforts require work on the part of someone.

My parents have dedicated their lives to religious ministry, they often feed the poor. This work is supported by those who choose to donate their time, money or the conribution of other goods.

Such efforts do not materialize from thin air. My parents' devotion is such that their sustinance requires little yet in any case it is a life that requires some. No great humanist can devote none of their efforts to self-support without riding on the contribution of those that are willing to work (largely in secular feilds) and help support the cause.

The charitable efforts take an administrative toll and charity, no matter how benevolent, is something that needs many to support.

There have been many people who dedicated their entire lives to charity. I personally know thousands. That they are less famous than Mother T is less a testament of their comparative inadequacy as it is the fact that people who serve in exotic locations and get named a saint draw more attention. That's one reason many of the missionaries I know are so eager to serve in Africa. Even though more fruitful missions are available in less exotic places.

In many cases Sainthood does not have as its criteria anything I consider worthwhile. Take Philomena for example. I therefore inquire about criteria.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:18 pm
I like what Craven is saying. He has ably countered maliager's overblown estimation of Christian saints versus other worthy persons.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:20 pm
I'm riding this wave....
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:33 pm
When religion is used to exclude, rather than include. This bothers me.
Somewhere I heard a church is not a museum for saints; its a hospital for sinners--I thought all churches should erect a plaque and repeat it along with everything else. It seems more and more church is neither a museum nor a hospital--its becoming a Country Club for business contacts.

As far as my religion--Christianity--it seems people find it easier to act like God, than to act like Christ.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 12:20 am
Maligar, while you've given a compelling story of sainthood and what true goodness is, you've proven little more than sadly, the exception hardly ever proves the rule.

Religious people worldwide campaign against homosexuality, abortion, evolution, and America ect. Imagine if they put the same energy into feeding the poor.

In shear number$ alone, secular people do more for the worlds hungry than any of the saints you've mentioned. Bill Gates (et al) provides people with the tools to permanently remove themselves from the sqaulor saints need to martry themselves in.

If you suffer in this life you'll be blessed with fuzzy promises.

Religious realities frequently revel in dismay. Instead of making life bearable, religious entities have balked at scienctific breakthroughs and the benifits. It's been the secular institutions who have provided travel, communication, medicine, education, law and order. The secular people let us rise out of the muck of history while the religious leaders prostlized from ivory towers turning a blind eye to the misery they'd inspired.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 01:48 am
Random thought, don't mean to interrupt the flow....

What irks me about religion is that it removes God.
He is removed, somewhere far away, living a very distant form of holy existence that maybe someday, if we're super-diligent and do what we're told, we might be able to start attaining after we die.

In my own definition (not involving belief or faith), there is nothing special or remote about God. He is everywhere around and within us, in every molecule, every voice, every thought, ideal and deed, equally and wonderfully.
(Wonderful = full of wonder, curiosity, growth)

Why focus on one event, one book, one philosophy, or one word? When my neighbor speaks the words are from God. When a dog barks or a cat meows, it's the voice of God. When anything happens, it's by the laws of physics, the laws and action of God, and each thing in the universe, each and every moment in time is beautiful and amazing just for what it is.

Introducing the concept of good and evil imposes human judgement, a variable and unreliable thing on top of such appreciation and wonder. Religion introduces the idea that we may judge and condemn various things and, depending on if they agree with us or not, pronounce them good or evil. Such judging isolates us from the thing we judge, removes further thought or investigation. It stops us. It removes the sense of wonder.

Religion undermines so much love for the universe around us, and isolates us from God in severe, socially demanding ways. It irks me. Why not look with the genuine love that comes welling from inside, and see that everything is what it is. All of it is worth loving. Every bit of the universe is interesting, a puzzle, a work of art, an item of integrity, cohesiveness and beauty, a part of God.

Why put heaven so far away?

.... Okay sorry, carry on.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:50 am
Don't apologize CodeBorg, you have made some very good points that completely fit in with the discussion.
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maliagar
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 02:03 pm
Sofia wrote:
When religion is used to exclude, rather than include. This bothers me. Somewhere I heard a church is not a museum for saints; its a hospital for sinners--I thought all churches should erect a plaque and repeat it along with everything else.


I totally agree. However, there is one point to be made: The Church is a hospital for sinners... that realize that they need to recover their health, and who are willing, if necessary, to change their lifestyle, adopt a different "diet", take their "medicine", and trust the "doctor".

Therefore, we shouldn't fool ourselves: Exclusion is indeed a possibility: People are always free to exclude themselves from regaining their full health. People are free to say that they want health, but keep smoking, eating junk, forgetting their pills, and ignoring the doctor.

:wink:
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maliagar
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 02:25 pm
If I had a penny for each time a former Christian has told me with a patronizing wink:

"Been there and done that",

or

"I was like you when I was 14..."

Well... maybe I was like YOU when I was 19. Maybe I've also "been there and done that". Maybe I went through my own crises, hedonism, materialism, this-worldliness, etc. Maybe I saw the limitations of all that.

And I could also say, for example, that I see your views as a way of justifying X lifestyle (if that were the case). Or that I see your views as a way not to think about the possibility that, after all, Christ may be the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that we get to fully know Him through his One and only Church...

Of course, this ad hominem argument wouldn't be acceptable... Yours isn't either.

ossobuco wrote:
I grew up with all you, Maliagar, are saying as background and might have listed the points you are making as arguments to others. Your confidence in your arguments reminds me of my own at eighteen. I see it as a little confidence to ward off a kind of panic.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 02:47 pm
Fries me that the Catholic's won't share communion!!!
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 02:49 pm
maliagar wrote:
If you take a close look at the lives and deaths of Mother Teresa and other comparable people, you won't see blind obedience to dogma out of fear. You'll see a joyful and free surrender to a larger truth internally accepted. This choice may not be without its trials, but it's taken out of a totally free decision. Fear is not fruitful. Generosity is.


You will never see the fear if you are selectively blind, Maliagar. If you insist you are seeing "joyful and free surrender to a larger truth" you will see that instead.

My guess: most of these people are operating out of FEAR -- blind, numbing, heart-wrenching fear. The god they pretend to love is one of the most vicious, murderous, vengeful, barbaric characters ever to come on the scene.

As I noted earlier -- the "penalty" the god has in store for people who do not do what Mother Theresa and those others do -- is excruciating torture unrelenting throughout all the rest of eternity.

And you want people to accept that they do the things they do out of love for this god -- not fear.

Hey, a good laugh is not that easy to come by. I thank you for that one.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 02:49 pm
Also pisses me off when some Christians - go around screwing it up for folks like me!
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maliagar
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 03:59 pm
husker wrote:
Fries me that the Catholic's won't share communion!!!


Not totally true. The Catholic Church has intercommunion with the Orthodox churches, the Polish national church, and a few others. If I were to live an a region where there is no Catholic Church, I could attend an Orthodox mass and receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ. We all share the same faith regarding the Eucharist.

The Church, however, does not have intercommunion with the Protestants for the very simple reason that they do not have the fullness of the priesthood (they broke with apostolic episcopal succession), and cannot consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. Furthermore, they don't even believe that it IS the Body and Blood of Christ:

"For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1 Cor 11:29)

To have intercommunion, there has to be a basic agreement on some basic tenets of the faith. That agreement exists with the historic churches of the East. Not with the Protestants (although ecumenical dialogue is making very interesting progress, especially with the Anglicans and the Lutherans).

:wink:
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cavfancier
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:04 pm
A little shmear makes those wafers much tastier Wink
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step314
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:14 pm
Good and evil
Quote:
Introducing the concept of good and evil imposes human judgement, a variable and unreliable thing on top of such appreciation and wonder. Religion introduces the idea that we may judge and condemn various things and, depending on if they agree with us or not, pronounce them good or evil. Such judging isolates us from the thing we judge, removes further thought or investigation. It stops us. It removes the sense of wonder.


What is a selfish person but someone who puts his own interests ahead of moral considerations because he is indifferent as to the consequences of his behavior on posterity? It matters (at least to good people) how the world turns out, and realistically, the world will be a better place if people are just. And what is justice but in the right way rewarding the good and thwarting the evil and selfish by protecting others from their depredations? Is not that an effective way of ensuring that the world will become a more beautiful place, to especially love those who in your judgement seek to make it a more beautiful place? To use a blatant example, should we not have contempt for those who don't judge mates prior to loving them unselfishly? What do you propose, Code Borg? That a woman throw dice to decide whether she wants to sleep with someone? And just because it may be best in most cases to judge artistically, it does not follow that we can't refine our artistic sensibilities by trying to understand them, by making rational moral judgments (by making rational judgments, we don't force ourselves to go by these judgments as opposed to our artistic ones).

There is some truth in what you are saying, inasmuch as ideally judgments of others outside the mating sphere should be as limited as possible. That is why a court of law is such a big deal and law needs to be imposed very carefully. But even here, that can be carried to excess. For instance, surely it were best if the West had come quicker to a full realization of the extreme evil of Hitler. But you seem to be saying something even more untenable, namely that it is wrong to judge various things. Some things you do will cause the world to turn out one way, other things you do will cause the world to turn out another way. Every choice you make will ripple through eternity to affect all of God's creation. Sometimes by taking the bother to think about the consequences of your choices on others, you can predict some of these effects. In my philosophy, the good choice is the choice that makes the world more beautiful, the bad choice is the one that makes the world less beautiful. It is not a matter of indifference.

Religion's judgments may be simplistic, but it is not the fault of the "concept of good and evil." True, people use the words good and evil like there is no gradation, whereas good and evil comes in all sorts of gradations, but so what? Do you really expect people to indicate how their moral philosophy applies to every particular shade of good and evil? That would be both unwieldy and unnecessary (e.g., the same arguments that apply to very good people also obviously tend to apply to people a little less than very good, only less so). You can believe in good and evil without believing in a strict dichotomy between the damned and the righteous--go right ahead, I wouldn't blame you. In defense of dualism, though, dualism is kind of appropriate when dealing with the addiction and depravity religion is most useful in reforming. Not that I'm on a quest to make each of my posts reference sodomy, but being traditional by definition, religion is mainly useful in fighting sodomy, and sodomy is literally a matter of one hole versus another hole.

In reference to the original question, the worst thing about a religion is if it is not against depravity. The second worst thing about a religion is if it tries to impose its out-of-date excessively puritanical views on non-screwed up people by wrongly trying to make them feel screwed-up. It could be that I think the former type of religion is worse now only because our age is particularly screwed-up. Hard to say, both types of religion are bad, and it doesn't seem all that important to choose accurately which is worst.
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:18 pm
Ceili wrote:
...compelling story of sainthood and what true goodness is, you've proven little more than sadly, the exception hardly ever proves the rule.


Sainthood, true goodness, holiness are always the exception because self-indulgence is always so much easier. But we should work towards it.

Quote:
Religious people worldwide campaign against homosexuality, abortion, evolution, and America ect. Imagine if they put the same energy into feeding the poor.


You need to have a more nuanced understanding of "religious people" and their internal differences. Maybe some exposure to them and their various types would help. Furthermore, campaigning against abortion and homosexuality, and working for the poor and sick are not mutually exclusive. Mother Teresa had very interesting things to say about abortion.

Quote:
In shear number$ alone, secular people do more for the worlds hungry than any of the saints you've mentioned.


I don't think you can prove this very bold statement. Guess who is the largest non-governmental provider of health and social services for the poor in states like New Jersey, New York, and others. Mother Teresa alone founded an order that is today present in most countries of the world, with thousands of religious and lay people working for it. There are many others. Check out the following links:

http://www.yementimes.com/98/iss32/lastpage.htm
http://www.washtimes.com/civilwar/20030711-012715-2586r.htm
http://www.columban.com/martyrology.htm
http://www.companysj.com/news/martyrs20.html
http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=8613
http://www.forachange.co.uk/index.php?stoid=154
http://www.parish-without-borders.net/Cambodia/maryknoll.htm
http://www.osvpublishing.com/periodicals/show-article.asp?pid=355
http://www.fva.org/200102/story03.htm
http://www.archatl.com/gabulletin/1989/890420b.html
http://www.afajournal.org/cover/activism_1.asp
http://www2.dcci.com/ocdokla/Disabled%20Nuns.htm
http://www.aegis.com/news/mh/1997/MH970603.html

Quote:
Bill Gates (et al) provides people with the tools to permanently remove themselves from the sqaulor saints need to martry themselves in.


Give me a break!!! Laughing Gates just has to sign a check for a library or some other thing. He does not have to go and live among the dying, the stinking sick, the poorest of the poor.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:34 pm
Re: Good and evil
step314 wrote:
Religion's judgments may be simplistic, but it is not the fault of the "concept of good and evil."


As in a legal code, religious morality provides simple dos and don'ts (there is a justification for each of them, for those who want to go deeper). These dos and don'ts are a minimum and binding starting point, and people can internalize them, or just live by them.

Neither the moral nor the legal code can judge particular cases (in which gradations of culpability and lack of it necessarily exist). Judging is by definition done by a judge, i.e., a person. And real justice has always been seen as requiring wisdom, flexibility, empathy, and such.

Judgment can be done for public purposes, or for private, spiritual purposes. Public purposes: The needs of the community (which has some rights, but also some duties, vis-a-vis the individual). Spiritual purposes: The search for perfection, holiness, etc.

Quote:
True, people use the words good and evil like there is no gradation, whereas good and evil comes in all sorts of gradations, but so what? Do you really expect people to indicate how their moral philosophy applies to every particular shade of good and evil? That would be both unwieldy and unnecessary (e.g., the same arguments that apply to very good people also obviously tend to apply to people a little less than very good, only less so). You can believe in good and evil without believing in a strict dichotomy between the damned and the righteous...


Agree.

Quote:
In defense of dualism, though, dualism is kind of appropriate when dealing with the addiction and depravity religion is most useful in reforming.


Agree again.
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 04:36 pm
cavfancier wrote:
A little shmear makes those wafers much tastier Wink


Was anybody complaining about sarcasm and such...?

:wink:
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 05:35 pm
Quote:
Since the religious ministry is not something I think fair to use as a secular humanist's criteria...


Not fair? Why is that?

Quote:
I posit that one who has secular employment and dedicates their life to charity is just as eleemosynary. All such efforts require work on the part of someone.


True. Formally, there is always something good in someone's effort to be consistent with his beliefs (of course, I'd rather have a hypocritical racist than a fully consistent one - what about you?). If this personal effort has a material content that is also worthy, so much the better. A businessman, a teacher, a soldier, a politician may be pursuing worthy ends (hopefully by worthy means).

There are degrees of consistency (is this a goal or the goal?) and of personal commitment (for a while, for a few years, for a whole life, with our whole life). Also, degrees of worthiness in the goals pursued (improve a community's library vs. save lives of those who have nobody to care for them). Finally, there are degrees of sacrifice and self-denial in the pursuit of those various smaller or larger goals (4 hours a day, 24/7, etc.).

I submit that (1) the goal, (2) the consistency (means towards the goal), (3) the commitment (whole life), (4) the sacrifice and self-denial of Mother Teresa's efforts (and of thousands of other anonymous saints as well), are extremely hard (if not impossible) to find among secularist atheists (or other religions, for that matter).

Quote:
The charitable efforts take an administrative toll and charity, no matter how benevolent, is something that needs many to support.


Of course. And the many are inspired by the commitment of those guided by faith.

Quote:
There have been many people who dedicated their entire lives to charity. ... That they are less famous than Mother T ... fact that people who serve in exotic locations and get named a saint draw more attention.


Not true. Mother Teresa is has not been named a saint... yet. Her work was discovered by a British journalist in the 70s. Many people like her also serve in exotic locations without being known or "discovered". Mother Teresa has thousands of followers, and their names are not famous. There are many religious orders with thousands of members working all over the world whose names are ignored by the owners of what's "news". Some of these orders have been doing their work for centuries upon centuries.

But they're not special. Anybody does what they do.... Rolling Eyes

:wink:
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