When has religion irked you personally and why?

Well put, edgarblythe. I think we have an armchair psychiatrist on our hands.

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Thanks for the story, maliagar, it was fascinating.

I chose the term 'religion' for the title of the thread for a reason. Edgar touched on this in his post. There is a difference between 'religion' and 'faith' and faith (especially in oneself) can come from both secular and non-secular experiences, just to clarify.

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ossobuco wrote:

They do?

Yes, they do.

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I am neither puritanically correct nor do I just do what I want, and I know many others like myself.

And should we assume that you've done it on your own, without any compasses?

In any case, the need of some sort of balance between both extremes is real, and most people pursue it (on their own and/or with a compass). Of course, neither puritans nor "anything goes" types are likely to accept that they are on any extreme of the spectrum... They probably think that they are right on the correct middle...

:wink:

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edgarblythe wrote:

Whether one adheres to a religion or something else, it all boils down to personal character.

I agree to some extent, but my guess is that my rationale is quite different from yours. So, how did you come up with the idea that character is the bottom line? How do you know this?

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It does not matter if one is Catholic, Jew, atheist or whatever.

You mean: It does not matter... to you? Or it does not matter... for what?

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One could recount endless examples of saints and sinners from all camps.

I've heard this argument so many times. But when I ask for the secular equivalent to Mother Teresa or Father Damian, people usually change subjects... Laughing

:wink:

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Bob Geldof, maliagar.

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cavfancier wrote:

Thanks for the story, maliagar, it was fascinating.

You should also check out the story of Father Damian, in Hawaii.

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There is a difference between 'religion' and 'faith' and faith (especially in oneself)....

Not sure of what you mean. Granted, religion is not, primarily, faith in oneself. On the contrary: It is primarily, an acknowledgement of our essential limitations, and a trust in one Other that overcomes those limitations. Faith in oneself is a very popular topic nowadays... of course, until we ask if we are really worthy of such an unconditional trust...

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...can come from both secular and non-secular experiences...

Yes. Faith can be explicitly religious or purely secular. I've been saying this all along since I came to A2K. Secular types usually don't acknowledge this. They claim that they are "purely" rational (whatever that means)...

The real question is: Which faith is really capable of generating the type of love for our neighbor displayed by St. Max Kolbe or Mother Teresa. Remember: St. Max Kolbe did what he did and died as he died BECAUSE of the radical way he lived his decision to follow Jesus Christ.

:wink:

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maliagar, I would have to agree that pure rationality is not the answer to problem solving. I know this from doing corporate team-building events, culinarily devised, of course. :wink: Now I shall ramble....companies and businesses generally fail for 2 reasons: lack of cashflow and lack of faith. This is my secular model. A boss needs to handle irate employees, financial difficulties, and the problem of making their vision understood to everyone involved. The role of any 'boss', secular or not, is benign and understanding leadership. In both worlds, the pursuit of the goal outweighs the complaints of the individual. Faith in your vision/journey, and inspiring faith in those who work with you, is paramount. This crosses the line between the religious and the secular, IMO.

Father Damian seems an interesting name for a priest, having seen "The Omen", but I would be interested in the story.

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It's obvious that you and I, maliager, will not agree on anything. I have had atheist friends who selflessly throw themselves into great causes, who put their life and health on the line in service to others. But you will never allow yourself to believe that is possible.

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edgarblythe wrote:

It's obvious that you and I, maliager, will not agree on anything.

That's an empirical question (don't get so pessimistic so quickly. Keep the faith... :wink: ).

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I have had atheist friends who selflessly throw themselves into great causes, who put their life and health on the line in service to others.

I'm sure, and I haven't questioned this.

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But you will never allow yourself to believe that is possible.

This sounds a little tiny bit prejudiced and biased on your part. In fact, this is just another empirical question... unless, of course, you already "know" me (or the "types" like me) and the things I will allow or not allow myself to believe....

I'm sure there are good and bad people anywhere. Now, Mother Teresa is not just another good person, you know. Nor the thousands of nuns and lay people following her inspiration and working with the stinking sick and poorest of the poor all over the world. St. Maximilian Kolbe or Father Damian were not just great guys either. There was something else in the way they lived... and in the way they died.

Now, who are the "heroes" of secularism? What is it that they did?

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maliagar,

What is the criteria? Someone who dedicates their life to teach others about Christ might be a saint to you and a demon to me.

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I'll get into this later....maliagar is getting a tad preachy again, and I know where you are going with this....

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Craven de Kere wrote:

maliagar, What is the criteria? Someone who dedicates their life to teach others about Christ might be a saint to you and a demon to me.

Riiiiight.... The criteria. For, "who is to say", right? And since "nobody" is to say, then you stick to your own criteria and I stick to mine. And we all should just shut up.

I know the routine.

Unless, of course, we SHARE some values (can you imagine that?).

If you read the way St. Maximilian Kolbe died (it's posted), or the way Father Damian died... maybe, just maybe, you'll see a value there (or, if not you, perhaps somebody else in this forum).

And if you see a value there and if I share it with you, then we can leave the discussion about "Who is to say..." for later.

Then the question becomes: How can we reach that type of love... (for we already agree on the value of that love)

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That wasn't my intent maliagar.

My point is this: I think we'd share the criteria of giving food to the poor etc. The witnessing part is something we'd not share.

If helping the poor is a criteria Bill Gates would qualify.

If preaching is he wouldn't.

Catch my drift?

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The value of faith to me has never been in doubt. How one arrives at their faith is another issue. I just can't accept that religion is the only way.

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What about the criterion of devoting your WHOLE life (and perhaps even your death) to those in desperate need?

[You really need to expand your horizons a bit and take a look at the way Mother Teresa and her followers deal with the sick and dying who are not Christian (the absolute majority of them)...]

Craven de Kere wrote:

That wasn't my intent maliagar.

My point is this: I think we'd share the criteria of giving food to the poor etc. The witnessing part is something we'd not share.

If helping the poor is a criteria Bill Gates would qualify.

If preaching is he wouldn't.

Catch my drift?

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cavfancier wrote:

The value of faith to me has never been in doubt. How one arrives at their faith is another issue. I just can't accept that religion is the only way.

Faith is a fact for both secularists and religious people. The question is: what faith is better suited to the whole truth about being human? Are we perfect, or do we need "something" essential? If we are perfect, we are like gods, and we should put our faith on ourselves. If we need "something" key, what is it that we need? Where do we get it from?

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maliagar wrote:

What about the criterion of devoting your WHOLE life (and perhaps even your death) to those in desperate need?

[You really need to expand your horizons a bit and take a look at the way Mother Teresa and her followers deal with the sick and dying who were not Christian (the absolute majority of them)...]

Craven de Kere wrote:
That wasn't my intent maliagar.

My point is this: I think we'd share the criteria of giving food to the poor etc. The witnessing part is something we'd not share.

If helping the poor is a criteria Bill Gates would qualify.

If preaching is he wouldn't.

Catch my drift?

And then again it could be that people like Mother Theresa are a bunch of sick pups -- terrified of the murderous, barbaric, vengeful god of the Bible -- and are willing to do anything to kiss its ass.

Not saying that is the way things are -- but it is a possibility.

I do KNOW this: I am acquainted with many Christians who are obsessed with being "saved." They are worried that this wonderful, kind, just, loving god of theirs might just get pissed at them -- and send them to Hell when they die where the god will subject them to excruciating torture unrelenting throughout all the rest of eternity.

Powerful motivator, that! Especially for the gullible.

Seems to me that lots of the (supposedly charitable) things Christians do are motivated by fear - not altruism.

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I think the strength of secularists is being able to determine that when they put their 'all' into a cause, it is because the cause is just, not because they feel compelled to do so by dogma.

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I think you have an idealized view of the secularists, and a poor view of religious people. Faith and dogma can be found anywhere. Joy and fear as well. Freedom and excessive concern for what others (peers, authorities) might say idem.

Now, the interesting thing is: "Dogma" can be an external "imposition" or an internalized, adopted, persuasive truth--in which case it is no imposition.

If you take a close look at the lives and deaths of Mother Teresa and other comparable people, you won't see blind obedience to dogma out of fear. You'll see a joyful and free surrender to a larger truth internally accepted. This choice may not be without its trials, but it's taken out of a totally free decision. Fear is not fruitful. Generosity is.

In fact, that's one of the criteria used by the Church to declare if a person is to be acknowledged as a "saint": The freedom, faith and joy of his or her choices.

cavfancier wrote:

I think the strength of secularists is being able to determine that when they put their 'all' into a cause, it is because the cause is just, not because they feel compelled to do so by dogma.

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A friend of my father's wrote a book called Damian the Leper (John Farrow). I read that as a teen. I grew up with all you, Maliagar, are saying as background and might have listed the points you are making as arguments to others. Your confidence in your arguments reminds me of my own at eighteen. I see it as a little confidence to ward off a kind of panic.

We are way off topic here, if anyone would care to review the original question. Craven has already asked, Maliagar, what about religion irks you?

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When has religion irked you personally and why?

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