When has religion irked you personally and why?

Adultery in this country not being against the law.

truth
Osso, the "law of the talon", I believe; an eye for an eye. I was just being fancy.
LW, yes, adultery is not a legal crime; it is a religious sin (in this country). But if it results in the adulterer leaving his or her spouse, the injured spouse may sue the "other woman/man" in civil court for alientation of affection.

It's really only a sin if one professes to be a member of a religious order. Otherwise, it's between the people involved. I realize that these people believe in Judgement Day where all sinners fall into an abyss which is really a strange court of law. Can you imagine going before the judge who instead of fining you or sending you to jail, pulls a lever and the floor opens up so you (and your attorney, of course, 'cause they deserve it) drop into a fiery abyss? Seems like Judgement Day is a rather arbitrary, cruel and unusual punishment.

It's also not against the law if one doesn't honor their father and mother but if they beat you and were hopeless alcholic drugs addicts, it seems like breaking a commandment (God's or Moses' law) is in order.

Actually, a child or an adult responsible could press criminal charges against the mother and father that are suppose to be honored. Where's the "thou shalt not beat up on your children" commandment? Oh, yes -- Mel Brooks broke those commandments.

Hey boys!!!!

Seems like you've been thinking of me a lot. I wish I had the same effect on the girls… Thanks for all the love. :wink:

Frankie keeps pulling my pants and misbehaving, eager as a spoiled kid to get acclaimed by the populus as the Victor, the Patriarch, the Man!

No need to kick and scream, Frankie. Older boys don't do that. Silence can have maaaany meanings, you see? I know: Your exegetical impatience, excuse me, prowess, leads you to the convenient conclusion that my silence must mean one and only one thing (to be found, I suppose, on Leviticus 20:13????)

No problem: Just go to your group think / support pals. You'll get the recognition you crave. You'll feel good. You'll sleep with a smile on your face. You'll keep your good standing as the Oracle of Oracles.

Whatever brings a proud "agnostic" happiness and a sense of fulfillment in this life.



A dialogue needs discipline and a protocol. Otherwise, it is easy to start walking in circles. Hence, early on I decided that Cicerone Impostor Imperator's and Tartarin's bland arguments were not worth my efforts.

Cicerone was quickly dismissed when he repeatedly took refuge under Frankie's wings.

Tartarin… well, she simply was so far ahead of all of you guys that she clearly saw that I made no sense at all, that I was just a charlatan, and that by hanging out with me you were becoming charlatans as well.

Then we had LightWeight. He was the divine source of so much fun…. But hey, the show… er, the dialogue had to go on…

For a while I was ambivalent about Cavfancier. He made some statements that really sounded "open-minded". But then it became clear that he would follow the crowd wherever it led him (he was initially willing to search for evidence until other people told him "No need to").

I had some interesting and not-so-interesting exchanges with Timberland. However, he did not respond to my last lines (which is fine), and I'm not pulling his pants to get his attention. How should I interpret his silence, oh Patriarch?

Then we have the Oracle of Oracles, the "agnostic" teaser who is suspiciously certain of too many things, and brings evidence for none. I was patient with him, until we reached his limit ("arguing" just by reasserting statements, and not being able to bring outside support for his very strongly held "agnostic" beliefs).

Then, Craven. At some early point, he forced me to refresh some arguments I hadn't used in a while (which, very tellingly, he didn't bother to read). But later on, when it came to providing empirical evidence for his beliefs, he took the teaser's road and shielded his opinions by recycling old questions.

So I've reached the end of a road filled with circles.

Now, a piece of advice for you guys:

In a forum on Spirituality, Religion and Christianity, I suggest that you expect to come across some Christians (duuuuuh!!!!!). If you don't, something's very wrong. And if you do come across some Christians, I suggest you get prepared to listen to some Christian talk. If you can't stand it, if it gets on your nerves, or if it causes you chills, this is not the right place for you.

It doesn't make sense to challenge Christians to explain their positions, and once they do, weep because they are "pushing their religion" on you (edgarblythe and others). It is as silly as accusing a secularist of "pushing his views on me" just because he was explaining them. People are forgetting how to confront ideas. This is no place for whiners who get easily offended.

I will continue posting here and there, but probably not as systematically as in the last few weeks. Some of you don't see the difference between being systematic and just walking in circles. I will continue engaging some people… hopefully, more productively and pleasurably. You're encouraged to keep reading my contributions and profiting from them.

I'm glad to have enlivened your lives…

----------------------

Here's something nobody ever even attempted to respond to:

Maliagar,

I played your game and gave you a name. YOU are copping out.

truth
Maliagar, I don't want to be rude, but your "I'm glad to have enlivened your lives" compels me to report that you really were a bit of a bore. This has clearly not been the case with the much more sincere Ican.

Evidence of sexual offenses by catholic priests: Canada - 2,500 claims of sexual abuse at a boarding school; Australia - 50 priests sentenced for sexual offenses; Ireland - 3,000 victims of sexual abuse by catholic preists; England - 21 priests convicted of sexual molestation from 1995 to 1999; US - 1,200 priests charged with sexual offenses by 4,000 minors. Spiritual leaders of the church. c.i.

truth
By the way all, I am Nobody, and since everybody knows that nobody is perfect....draw your own conclusion.

Don't mix us up with actual statistics and facts, it takes up too much time and energy to put together words that will sufficiently rationalize it to all go away. Especially the obtuse ramblings of a certain poster.

There are also thousands of jokes about catholic priests. This is only one of them, but it tells the story. c.i.

Evidently, catholic priests do not understand the meaning of "discipline and a protocol." The majority of priests will not meet maliagar's qualifications for dialogue. c.i.

http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20000728/20000728s3.html

Buddhist abbot accused of sexual abuse

A young novice monk leaves a monastery in Taipei County accompanied by his parents after the monastery's abbot was accused of sexual abusing boys in his care.

Buddhist abbot was accused yesterday of sexual harassment and sexual abuse of at least 24 young monks between six and 14-years-old, who were staying at a monastery established and run by him.

The accused, Master Chihhao, 36, had already fled the monastery in Hsichih, Taipei County, when the allegations came to light yesterday. He was accompanied by a young monk. A representative of the monastery, Master Wukung, downplayed the accusations, saying that he had been in touch with Chihhao and was told that the abbot would come forward to tell his side of the story.

Twenty-four of the 32 young monks living at the monastery told police that Chihhao had, at some time, asked them to bathe with the abbot or sleep with him. Some of the youngsters said that Chihhao had made sexual advances toward them and went so far as to fondle their genitals. Six said that the abbot had had some form of intercourse with them. They said that the abuse had gone on for as long as two years.

Master Wukung, however, said that the charges were unlikely to be true and were based on misunderstandings. "Chihhao loves the kids and sometimes bathes them, and so maybe they became playful at the time -- the kids liked to play. And sometimes when they were sleeping at night the kids would get scared and cry, then Chihhao would come and comfort them. This kind of relationship [between Chihhao and the young monks] is like that between a father and his son," Wukung said.

But Taipei County Deputy Chief Magistrate Lin Wan-yi said the situation is not that simple.

"This is not just `playing,' as Wukung describes. The allegations are of explicit contact with the genitals of the youngsters," Lin said.

The prosecutor in the case has gathered evidence against Chihhao and has called on the abbot to come out of hiding for questioning.

"Otherwise we will have to issue a warrant for his arrest," Chen Wen-chi, division head prosecutor at Shihlin District Prosecutors' Office said.

The scandal was first disclosed yesterday evening after the mother of a young monk informed police of the abuse she heard of from her son. After learning of the allegations, some of the young monks were taken away from the monastery by their families. The Taipei County Government's Bureau of Social Affairs has relocated the others to a safe place.

Young monks at the monastery attend regular primary and secondary schools, but after school go back to the monastery to live the life of a monk.

The "monk school" was established by Chihhao for problem children and used the principle that religious discipline and education would keep the youths out of trouble. The project drew a great deal of media attention and positive coverage some three months ago.

But Lin pointed out that the monastery is illegal. "It is registered as a foundation rather than a school and is not permitted under the law to house children like this," Lin said, adding that the county government would cancel the foundation's permit.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/982094.stm

Buddhist abbot accused

An abbot at a Thai temple has been ordered to leave the monkhood in disgrace after being caught carousing with women in a karaoke bar...

Reports said the abbot had donned a wig, sunglasses and normal clothes for the clandestine visit to the bar in his home province of Ang Thong.

Pativetviset has protested his innocence, but his superiors have reportedly told him to leave temple life or face being defrocked...

The Bangkok Post said a pile of clothes, a wig and a bottle of perfume had been found near a temple in Ang Thong...

The Religious Affairs Department said the authorities may push for criminal proceedings against the abbot if it is found he squandered temple funds on partying...

In recent years, Buddhist monks have been involved in a number of scandals in Thailand and have been accused of crimes including child sexual abuse and murder.

Last month Thailand's abbots censured a Buddhist monk at another Bangkok temple after he amassed a vast collection of luxury cars using disciples' donations.

And in another scandal, police tests on monks at a temple in Nakhon Sawan province appeared to show a number had taken drugs.


http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/world/facts/104-notochildmonk.htm

...one major reason Obeyesekere opposes child recruitment is that the very young are vulnerable to sexual abuse, which he says is ''notoriously associated'' will all forms of institutionalized monasticism.

The possibility of child abuse in Buddhist monasteries ''must be faced honestly and squarely,'' he stressed.

Unlike adult monks, children have little chance of resisting sexual advances, the professor added.

''Even the presence of guardians, or sponsors is not protection. How does the guardian inquire into such possibilities when the mere talk of homoerotic practices is taboo?,'' Obeyesekere asked.

Gee, a few buddhist monks against thousands upon thousands of catholic priests. What's your point? We're not talking about the good that buddhist monks have accomplished in this world. We're talking about the saints and do-gooders of the catholic church. Please stay on topic. c.i.

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenabuse.htm

Zen Abuses

by Ming Zhen Shakya, May 21, 2000

...

The dissertation, a treatise in Transpersonal Psychology, has long technical sections in which the author defines the specific betrayals she has studied and reviews the relevant literature. But then she records the personal statements of her informants in which they related their experiences with ecclesiastical superiors who had exploited and abused them - sexually in most instances. And then the work takes on the strange fascination of highway wreckage, the mangled cars we hate to see but cannot look away from.

---

Are you trying to concede that we all belong to the human race, and no group has a monopoly on good and bad? c.i.

not at all an unusual defence "so you think i'm bad, i can show you bad that makes me look good" kinda silly though. maybe that's where the Bush gets his ideas. personally i kinda favor Dylan's "if something ain't right, it's wrong"

I also enjoy the way you've been ignoring me.

dys, We all know what maliagar is up to, and it won't work. c.i.

http://www.island.lk/2001/07/08/featur03.html

Child ordinations and the rights of children
by Gananath Obeyesekere

Recent newspaper articles, photographs and reports in our newspapers have given prominence to massive campaigns to recruit thousands of children to the Buddhist order with the Prime Minister himself urging the recruitment of two thousand children as novices. ...

My concern here is with the whole problem of child monks because this seems to be a violation of both the letter and the spirit of the Theravada Vinaya, the authoritative source of rules for monks...

1. The recruitment thrust has the blessings of politicians and the officials of the Buddha Sasana Ministry. ... most of the child recruits must surely come from the poorest of the poor... One might make a case that monastic recruitment is a good thing because it provides homes and basic care for poor children. Yet, most of these children have had more than one meal a day, have had playmates and the support of family and kin folk. How would they fare with no solid food after the noon meal, without playmates and kin support? ...

2. The more serious problem is that of sexual abuse notoriously associated with all forms of institutionalized monasticism, witness the recent cases of abuse of children put in their pastoral care even by high prelates of the Catholic Church. But Catholics have no system of child ordination and therefore the possibility of abuse of children confined to Buddhist monasteries must be faced honestly and squarely.

...I believe that in general village monks are morally responsible human beings. Yet, it is foolish to believe that abuse of children does not take place in larger monasteries, in urban settings and among the more worldly monks. The rules of the Vinaya themselves were formulated when specific acts of immorality had taken place in monasteries and among these are unlawful homoerotic activities, generally among consenting adults. In our own troubled times, monks are provided with plenty of sexual stimuli: in TV and in coeducational interactions in campuses and other arenas. Yet the rules do not provide them with heterosexual outlets. One would imagine, therefore, that in our modern context the possibility of child abuse is certainly there and one ought to have institutional safeguards for that purpose. Urban monasteries today provide no serious monastic education because modern monks want to sit for secular government exams and go to secular universities.

...

3. Unlike adult monks children have little chance of resisting sexual advances. They are much more vulnerable; the cultural and familial pressures are so strong that they cannot run away to their own homes and, as far as I know, there is no satisfactory way in which they can protest to the monastic authorities. The new ordinations require, I am told, a guardian who will act in the interests of the child. But how does the guardian inquire into such possibilities when the mere talk of homoerotic practices is taboo? And how does a guardian set about his task? Are there rules and institutional procedures laid out?...

4. What are the rules of the order regarding child ordination? The classic rule which officials and monks go by is formulated in the Mahavagga 1, 53-54 of the Vinaya Pitake . ...

...

(The writer is Professor of Anthropology, Emeritus, of Princeton University, New Jersey, USA)