They don't hate us, they love their God

I dont like militants or fanatics either.

Its sufficient for the agnostic to say I dont know. And for the atheist to say I dont believe (you make a good point there set).

It seems to me that its the believers who compensate for their absolute lack of evidence with ever more fanatical protestations of faith.

Which applies to militant atheists as much as it does to the militant theists. It also applies to the bullying agnostic who loudly asserts her or his superior point of view--the exercise is the same in all cases.

Few people could spice up a thread like the pizzaiaolo. I miss him.

Tejano, another welcome. You are providing stimulating and sincere talk.
Please note that the vast majority of gays do not march and do not make a show of their gayness. Most gays I know are barely out of the closet and appear to be straight--and I'm not referring to a butch facade.
Moreover, I think that those who do advertise their homosexual lifestyle and sexual activities would be less inclined to that admittedly obnoxious in-your-face activity if they were not persecuted for being who and what they are though NO choice of their own.

Greetings, JL:

I'm beginning to like it here - nice people. My initial impressions were wrong, which is usually the case.

I guess were in a "viscious circle" - they're in our face because we persecute them and we persecute them because they are in our face.

Although I have had little personal contact with gay people over the years, I do acknowledge, unlike some of my persuasion, that it may indeed be an inborn propensity - or at the very least developed very early in childhood. In any case, it's not their fault - we agree on that.

However, we must part when it comes to behavior. An inclination toward "sin" (my way of speaking - please pardon) is not a license to actually engage in that behavior. I understand that this will likely sound absurd to your ears, but I do think a homosexually-inclined person should remain celibate. I know - many young men went into the catholic priesthood with just that intention and and we all saw what happened. But, there were also many gay priests who did manage to avoid the actual act itself - and they will reap rich rewards in Heaven for their strength, fortitude and faith.

I believe, and I think most of my evangelical brethren and even Jesus himself, would agree, that a celibate homosexual is not only strong in his faith, and clean from sexual sin - he is, and should be, a role model for all the rest of us. I don't agree with the Pope on much, but I do on this one - being gay is NOT a sin. Only the sexual act itself is sinful.

We have a baptist doctrine that is often forgotten in the heat of debate - "hate the sin and love the sinner." ALL my love (spiritual, that is ) and admiration goes out to the christian homosexual who manages to resist the temptation. He will be more richly blessed than we!

Jack

We all have an inclination toward sin, Tex, and have had since the Edenic rebellion.

And you are right that inclination does not confer license.

I didn't know the source of the quote either...until I read it in the A2K post I quoted for you. There was no intention to embarrass in pointing out the problems with the tornado in a junkyard analogy. It has been my experience that many preachers are not all that ethical in what they use to sell their product even when they know that what they say is false or misleading.

We are actually quite a mixed crowd here, which is one of the reasons that makes A2K so great IMO. If everyone had the same background and point of view discussions would go flat in a hurry.


No apologies needed and all views are welcomed. If your views get challenged and they most certainly will, try not to take it personally.

I see that you have already commented on a couple of subjects (slavery and homosexuality) which tend to generate a lot of heat. For an idea on how some of those discussions have gone previously here are a couple of links for just a small sample.

Rethinking Homosexuality
Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

Tejano, given your position that your spiritual love and admiration "goes out to the christian homosexual who manages to resist the temptation. He will be more richly blessed than we!" do you say the same regarding abstinent pedophiles? In other words are all inclinations forgiven if they are kept under control?

And what about the individual who wishes he could BELIEVE in order to avoid the unlikely but conceivable punishment of eternal damnation but refrains from belief because of a felt obligation to remain faithful to HIS standards of evidence and reason?

Ooooo, that was delicious JL

Are you still trotting out that old canard neo, even after Joe showed that there was no rebellion? Any progress in working out a reasoning for the inclusion of the tree of life in the edenic story?

Terrific questions, JL. I only wish I could respond with equal insight. I can only give you the christian perspectives as I have been taught them. WARNING - some of this will raise some serious hackles on y'all's secular necks. But stay cool - don't get angry or mean. I know y'all must have gay friends, muslim friends, black friends - I hope I can be your redneck friend.



That's an easy one! The answer is a huge, unequivocal, "YES". Evil thoughts enter everyone's mind, and the christian simply asks his Savior to forgive them and it's instantly done. In fact, I have found that when I think unwholesome things, I simply mentally ask Jesus to free me from that and it's instantly gone and replaced with better thoughts. Just self-therapy, simple psychology? Perhaps. But it surely does work, I can assure you on that much.

The problem of wanting to believe and being unable to actually do so is very common. Of course, one cannot benefit from Jesus' forgiveness unless one believes in Him. Pastors encounter it everyday. People around here are taught from infancy that failure to "believe" is wrong and that a non-believer is an incomplete human being. It wasn't really a fear of Hell that motivated me as a child - but more a desire to "fit-in" and be like everyone else. Church is everything in our family lives, you see - the center of all our social and receational activity - and it always has been since I was born. That's one reason we see such a high rate of church attendance in these communities. I'm sure many have serious doubts - in fact I KNOW they do - but church is where all the action is. If you don't go there you are alone and friendless and nobody likes that.

I remember, at age ten or so, standing outside during a fierce electrical storm and challenging the Lord to prove his existence by striking me down! My teachers told my parents that I had the highest IQ in the whole school - too high, I guess, for my own good.

So, naturally, some young people from christian homes, with high intelligence and inquiring minds (worsened nowadays by the secular nature of modern public schools), get very distressed when they experience what we call a "crisis of faith." The problem is usually overcome by first accepting Jesus on an intellectual level, regular prayer (even if they don't believe anyone is listening), and Bible study. In time the issue normally resolves itself and they accept Him on a personal level as well. Y'all may call this "brain-washing" and I won't argue with that characterization - but can't the same be said of any sort of philosophical indoctrination?

Many christians are having such crises of faith because we are exposed to a lot of secular thinking in this day and age - especially when our kids go to college - or participate in forums like this one. Paul talks about putting-on the "armor of God" to protect ourselves from these influences -in simplier language - no use to white wash it - that means to intentionally close your mind to things that would threaten your faith.

I know you're not going to like any of this - but it is an accurate description of the situation in our community and the best and only answers I can provide to your very thoughtful and probing questions. Thank you for the opportunity to "bloviate", as Bill O'Reilly would say - your favorite person , right?

Jack

Tejano, you have a winning way. I think you WILL be the red-neck friend of many of us secularist liberals.

You say: "Of course, one cannot benefit from Jesus' forgiveness unless one believes in Him."
That makes sense. But it also makes sense that if you don't believe in the supernatural status of the historical Jesus, you will not need his forgiveness. An equal benefit.
The historical Jesus was a great teacher, but while he pointed the way, what did we do? We suck his Finger for comfort.

At least you know what you're doing.

Yes, Ros. Isn't his/her objectivity refreshing? I hope he's not really an atheist putting us on.

Hahaha Yes, but I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The next question would be how does such a rational christian answer something like this:

someday, perhaps, I will post an episode about my visit with JLN.

You seem to be under the impression that religious belief is the same as being spiritual. I beg to differ. Having a belief system -- a set of thoughts that you regard as the absolute truth -- does not make you spiritual no matter what those beliefs are. Spirituality is the transformation of consciousness. So many religions at the present time are are dominated by the mindset that spirituality is the adoption of a belief system. As a result, real spiritual awakening is arising largely outside of the structures of institutionalized religion. What you perceive as "crises of faith" may in some cases be just this.

As a result of spiritual teachings arising outside established religions and also because of the influx of the ancient Eastern wisdom teachings, many followers of traditional religions are able to let go of identification with rigid belief systems and dogma. They are discovering the depth within themselves, and the original depth that has been hidden within their own spiritual tradition. They realize that how "spiritual" you are has nothing to do with what you believe but everything to do with your state of consciousness. It is your state of consciousness that determines how you act in the world and how you interact with others. A belief system becomes something that you must defend. It often serves to intensify the ego.

O.K., Dys, how much do you want?

Yes, IFF, that is very important. Any efforts to "communicate" non-dualist mystical insights to others runs the high risk that they will think you are only concerned to persuade them to take on a belief. The emphasis on BELIEF (faith) in the Abrahamic religions distinguishes them starkly from the insight-oriented emphasis of the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the East.
In "the East", to fabricate a playful example, it would reflect an enlightened state of consciousness to UNDERSTAND the formula E=MC2; in "the West" it would be considered "virtuous" to BELIEVE the truth of the formula even if you don't understand it.

JLN, but I think this is more than a cultural difference. I don't see dualist and non-dualist teachings on anything like an equal footing. Dualist teachings reflect the logic of the ego -- separateness. It is saying, "I am separate from God." As soon as you adopt that point of view, you tend to give up on direct cognition of truth and instead buy into the view that truth is something that is received from an external source (bible, church, pastor, etc.). You accept a belief system. Non-dualist teachings, on the other hand, affirm our direct connection with God. God is not an entity "out there". God is within. God is realized, not through belief, but through a transformation of consciousness. I suppose many people are too entrenched in their beliefs to hear this type of teaching. However, there are signs of change.