They don't hate us, they love their God

eltejano,

You can count me as among the followers of Christ, and as a friend.

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Praise the Lord! I thought you were - simply by the geography if nothing else. Laughing

I'm stuck here. Mesquite and others are going to force me into discussing gender issues. If I present the Scripture they are going to get furious. If I don't, I'm a coward and lousy christian. I'm just praying about it and trying to build-up the courage.

Just how much wiggle room do we have without compromising principle?
Someone quoted earlier, on this thread, 1Cor 14:32-35. It sounds pretty rough to modern ears, but I think Paul was dealing with a specific problem in that specific church - not laying-down a doctrine. Can I get away with that? Smile

Rather than present my personal views of marriage and family, which are quite traditional and conservative, I would rather just stay with what the Bible allows and requires - and I would like to do that with all the wiggle room I can find. In our baptist church, if the pastor were to really lay-out what the Bible says about divorce half the congregation would get up and walk out! These guys here will go ballistic!

Pray for me, Brother.

Jack

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The bible says what it says. Rather than sugar coat a doctrine in order to tickle their ears, learn how to explain the doctrine. (2Timothy 4:3)

That ain't always easy. I have plenty of cuts and bruises obtained in threads like Christianity is a poor source of moral guidance,
and Frank's moronic tirade:

Why does the god of the Bible consider slavery to be moral??

Just remember that even though you may never convince the ones arguing against you, there are many readers of the thread who never post. They only read. And what you say may be important to them.

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eltejano wrote:

I'm stuck here. Mesquite and others are going to force me into discussing gender issues. If I present the Scripture they are going to get furious. If I don't, I'm a coward and lousy christian.

I've been thinking about this comment, and I have to say that it's not -people quoting scripture- that rubs me the wrong way, it's -people quoting scripture as evidence of supernatural events-. To me that is irrational, and irrational arguments bother me.

If someone quotes scripture purely as an example of a philosophical argument for how to approach human behavior, then I'm more open to it. After all, books teach us things, whether they are fictional or not.

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After praying about it, I realize that my problem is that I'm embarrassed to present those Scriptures because, frankly, we don't follow them anymore. That's why I'm so uncomfortable with the subject. Everybody's wife works, most get divorced and remarried and women share decision-making authority in christian homes, including mine.

My parents had a home that would probably pass biblical muster. My father was absolute boss, mother never worked a day in her life and obeyed him in everything. It's not that way in my house - and even LESS so in my children's homes - and my adult grandchildren....good grief! - they have babies out-of-wedlock, get divorced at the least provocation (if they even bother to get married) and, despite their christian training, think nothing of it! I haven't lived by those rules, my family doesn't live by them, and the unvarnished truth is that I don't even like to read them, let alone preach them to y'all. That's why our pastor never mentions any of this - we can't take it!

So there you have it. But I do still believe that all Scripture is the Word of God and that we SHOULD be following them. I guess it would be easier if I thought like y'all and didn't even worry about it.

I wasn't afraid of incurring your wrath, you see - I was afraid of admitting my own sin - or hypocritically defending Scriptures that I have ignored in my own life. My father, who was still alive when my wife got a job , said to me, "any man who sends his wife out to work is no man at all." That hurt - and it still hurts because I can't rationalize it away. He was, in the eyes of God, right. I could have supported my family and met my responsibilities as a christian husband and father - I just wanted more money, largely because all my friends' wives worked and they had more stuff!

Jack

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eltejano wrote:

So there you have it. But I do still believe that all Scripture is the Word of God and that we SHOULD be following them.

Why do you believe scripture is the word of God? What if the people who told you that were simply wrong.

Does the scripture seem like the word of an omniscient spiritual being, or does it seem like the stories told by people in ancient societies.

Maybe there's a good reason why you don't follow those scriptures any more. Maybe it's because they don't make sense for today's society. If an omniscient being wanted to tell you something, couldn't it do a whole lot better than that.

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rosborne979 wrote:

eltejano wrote:
So there you have it. But I do still believe that all Scripture is the Word of God and that we SHOULD be following them.

Why do you believe scripture is the word of God? What if the people who told you that were simply wrong.

Does the scripture seem like the word of an omniscient spiritual being, or does it seem like the stories told by people in ancient societies.

Maybe there's a good reason why you don't follow those scriptures any more. Maybe it's because they don't make sense for today's society. If an omniscient being wanted to tell you something, couldn't it do a whole lot better than that.

In another thread, the "How do we know that Christians are delusional" thread, in response to the opening post, Ashers wrote the following:

Ashers wrote:

Well it's clear if you attack the belief of a fanatic, in their eyes, you're attacking the fanatic themselves. The belief, it's assumed validity, the continued faith in said belief, all of these things comprise too important an element of self identity to separate it all out and have an open discussion. It's genuinely hurtful or dangerous to them, we can be in NO doubt about this IMHO.

Now, i am not saying that ET is a fanatic, although i suspect that his adherence to his religious creed partakes of fanaticism. But, leaving aside the issue of whether or not one is fanatical, Ashers' analysis here goes right to the heart of why you will never make an impression on ET on this subject, and why i have always maintained that it were foolish to think that religion can be eliminated. I suggest to you that ET identifies so closely with his religious creed that any threat to the tenets of that creed will be perceived by him as a threat to his very being. He can no more shed his religious assumptions than he can shed his skin.

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eltejano wrote:

After praying about it, I realize that my problem is that I'm embarrassed to present those Scriptures because, frankly, we don't follow them anymore. That's why I'm so uncomfortable with the subject. Everybody's wife works, most get divorced and remarried and women share decision-making authority in christian homes, including mine.

My parents had a home that would probably pass biblical muster. My father was absolute boss, mother never worked a day in her life and obeyed him in everything. It's not that way in my house - and even LESS so in my children's homes - and my adult grandchildren....good grief! - they have babies out-of-wedlock, get divorced at the least provocation (if they even bother to get married) and, despite their christian training, think nothing of it! I haven't lived by those rules, my family doesn't live by them, and the unvarnished truth is that I don't even like to read them, let alone preach them to y'all. That's why our pastor never mentions any of this - we can't take it!

So there you have it. But I do still believe that all Scripture is the Word of God and that we SHOULD be following them. I guess it would be easier if I thought like y'all and didn't even worry about it.

I wasn't afraid of incurring your wrath, you see - I was afraid of admitting my own sin - or hypocritically defending Scriptures that I have ignored in my own life. My father, who was still alive when my wife got a job , said to me, "any man who sends his wife out to work is no man at all." That hurt - and it still hurts because I can't rationalize it away. He was, in the eyes of God, right. I could have supported my family and met my responsibilities as a christian husband and father - I just wanted more money, largely because all my friends' wives worked and they had more stuff!

Jack

A very revealing and honest post, Jack.

From a biblical point of view, be reassured that crises of faith are due us all. Many fail to recognize them at their peril. That is why Paul was inspired to write "Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (1Corintians 10:12)

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Jack - Jefferson while championed by many deists is not the prime example if you wish to learn about deism. Thomas Paine, french philosopher would be the best to study. Jefferson was more of the millitant anti-religious than he was a deist in my opinion. Deism, having no doctorine (that's kind of the point), is hard to define, and somewhat ironic when practiced. Jefferson, while a great politician and philosopher tried very hard to make deism to him what Christianity was to others. The relationship just isn't the same.

Hard to explain, but thanks for taking an interest.

T
K
O

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It's tough. Reality is tough. It's unfeeling. It has no sense of justice nor of humor. Nature uses as many unpredictable events to affect our lives as the improbability of life itself can provide. Wrapping oneself up in a nice set of scriptures handed down (that's what they told me) from heaven itself can be a mighty shield against facing reality. Such a small step from a shield to a blindspot. Such a big step back.

But it can be done.

Quote:

He can no more shed his religious assumptions than he can shed his skin.

It feels just like that. That you have shed some kind of skin. You are more naked than you have ever been and for the first few weeks of reality you keep grasping, like the smoker who quit and keeps grabbing his pocket for his pack weeks later, gasping for the help of a god that you now realize was never there in the first place.

Luckily, nature abhors a vacuum and what comes rushing into your consciousness is just how good life is when it is real. Love is warmer, hotter, richer, it has a thickness, a texture in your brain. Faith in your fellow humans flows out and back like tides and once you drop the delusion that a god has a plan for your life and a purpose, you start to be, to live, to be. Really.

I am only getting used to it now.

Joe(it's takes a while for the brain to relearn living)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

. . . Faith in your fellow humans . . .

How reassuring.

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neologist wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:
. . . Faith in your fellow humans . . .
How reassuring.

You don't have faith in your fellow humans?!! Oh, that's right, I forgot, faith in god, not humanity.

How's that working out for you? Is he, He, holding up his end of the bargain? Or is there just silence at his end of the phoneline?

Is he still pulling that 'works in mysterious ways' scam?
(Letting God go.)

Do you think Osama bin Ladin has lost any of his faith in god?
How about those guys in the basement of the Red Mosque?
(There is a new bunch in there as of this morning..)
Do you think they have more faith in their god than faith in humanity?

That would make you the same as they are.

Now, lest anyone think I'm am being ill-tempered about all this, I'm not. I ask these questions lightly so that you will consider them deeply.

Joe(Here. A smiley laughing.

)Nation

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Setanta wrote:

Now, i am not saying that ET is a fanatic, although i suspect that his adherence to his religious creed partakes of fanaticism. But, leaving aside the issue of whether or not one is fanatical, Ashers' analysis here goes right to the heart of why you will never make an impression on ET on this subject, and why i have always maintained that it were foolish to think that religion can be eliminated. I suggest to you that ET identifies so closely with his religious creed that any threat to the tenets of that creed will be perceived by him as a threat to his very being. He can no more shed his religious assumptions than he can shed his skin.

Possibly, but Jack seems reasonable in his posts and consistant within his own belief structure. He also seems to be self-aware and rational (unlike others we have on the boards).

While I agree with Ashers in a general sense, I also know that everyone is different, and there exceptions stereotypical behavior.

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I like Jack.

He's humble.

Joe(Just like me)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

Do you think Osama bin Ladin has lost any of his faith in god?
How about those guys in the basement of the Red Mosque?
. . .

Aren't they your fellow humans?

You do have faith in them, right?

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I have faith that we can be humans together once the blindness of faith in a superhuman being is abandoned.

Joe(as long as there is life, there is possibility)Nation

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Sounds like the Formulism goal to me.

Might just happen.

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Joe Nation wrote:

I have faith that we can be humans together once the blindness of faith in a superhuman being is abandoned.

Free to entertain non-religious forms of human blindness?

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Joe - Even if I were tempted - I would have only two choices. (1) A very lonely life buried deep in the closet or (2) Be totally ostracized and rejected by people I have known all my life - including my own loved ones. Do you have an extra bedroom at your house? Laughing

Jack

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TKO - Would that be the same Tom Paine that wrote the revolutionary pamphlets and The Age of Reason? When I was in HS it was not secular yet, and my history teacher maligned him as a viscious atheist. I will revisit his writings. Thank You.

So far, it appears that deism is a belief in a distant deity and creator who is not involved in human affairs - and no doctrines, belief system or etc.
I guess he doesn't listen to prayer either. He's just "there", like the moon in the sky?

Jack

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They don't hate us, they love their God

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