Tom Cruise, Cults, Germany

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Tom Cruise was set to star in a film about the plot to kill Adolf Hitler but Germany has banned the makers of the movie from filming at German military sites because Cruise is a Scientologist.

The German government does not recognize the Church of Scientology as a church because they feel that it masquerades as a religion to milk money from people.

Defense Ministry spokesman Harald Kammerbauer said the film makers "will not be allowed to film at German military sites if Count Stauffenberg is played by Tom Cruise, who has publicly professed to being a member of the Scientology cult".

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Er...much as I wouldn't want Tom Cruise anywhere near me, either, I am not sure what belonging to a money milking cult has to do with it.

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A good background reference can be found here.

http://www.german-way.com/religion.html

It seems that the key issue is the "offense" caused to the German authorities by the scientologists accusing them of nazi style "religious discrimination". IMO the dispute highlights the ludicrous attempts to demark "religion" from "cult".

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Pulling up a chair on this one...

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I don't think Tom Cruise is hurting anybody, practicing his religion. (I consider it a religion, at least for him, if he totally believes it, regardless of the origin and some of the practices. No different in essence from the origins of other religious beliefs, no more fantastic). On the other hand, Germany is in a unique position in the world, and I find it hard to fault them for their actions in this matter.

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Anything that puts any kind of dent in Scientology makes me very happy.

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I don't get it. Why are someone's beliefs cause for being banned? Does this mean that anyone who is a Scientologist can't for the German government? How is that not discriminatory?

As long as the "believer" is not proselytizing, why is this anyone's business?

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Quote:

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In 1973, or so, I attended Scientology services in Long Beach, CA. What we were being taught was fairly rational, except that they accept god-belief, whereas I reject it. During these sessions, there was no mention of beings from outer space. That part took me by surprise, some years later. The more bizare aspects of it were not evident in those classes.

When I came to Houston, I learned that Mayor Louis Welch had one time pronounced a Scientology Day, to celebrate that organization's good works about the city.

My encounters with the organization were good ones, and I read several of their books, and found thos particular volumes pretty good.

In the years since then, I have not kept up with these people, and I don't know where they are going with their notions. I just recall some good times and wish the ones I knew luck and success.

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Odd. I was just reading this:

Court bars suit against faith-based plan
By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer 16 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration's faith-based initiatives got a boost Monday from the Supreme Court: a ruling that ordinary taxpayers cannot sue to stop conferences that help religious charities apply for federal grants.

President Bush called the 5-4 decision "a substantial victory for efforts by Americans to more effectively aid our neighbors in need of help."
The court blocked a lawsuit by a group of atheists and agnostics against eight Bush administration officials including the head of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070625/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_faith_based

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How far did you get, edgar? Are you a clear?

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I ran into this part

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Scientology pays members commissions on new recruits they bring in, encouraging Scientology members to "sell" Scientology to others.

when a friend of mine in university was recruited.

Seems very much like a pyramid scheme. If you're not bringing in new members, you can't afford to take the audit programs. You've got to constantly be working on bringing in fresh recruits - get their money started.

wiki with references

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Roberta wrote:

I don't get it. Why are someone's beliefs cause for being banned? Does this mean that anyone who is a Scientologist can't for the German government? How is that not discriminatory?

As long as the "believer" is not proselytizing, why is this anyone's business?

Well, in Germany Scientologists are free to practice whatever they believe in. German administrative courts and appeals courts have consistently held that the Scientology is to be afforded protection under the German Basic Law.

On the other hand, Scientology has been caught trying to infiltrate the government in the United States:

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In 1977, Scientology offices on both coasts of the United States were raided by FBI agents seeking evidence of Operation Snow White, a church-run espionage network. Hubbard's wife Mary Sue and a dozen other senior Scientology officials were convicted in 1979 of conspiracy against the United States federal government, while Hubbard himself was named by federal prosecutors as an "unindicted co-conspirator."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

Most people in Germany would regard Scientology as a cult rather than a religion. It is considered a commercial business association and with no tax exemption. Scientology is being monitored by most German intelligence agencies (every state has an Amt für Landesverfassungsschutz - an Office for the Protection of the Constitution) for perceived anti-constitutional ideology. Essentially, Scientology is under surveillance on the same grounds that Neo-Nazi parties are being monitored.

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fresco wrote:

It seems that the key issue is the "offense" caused to the German authorities by the scientologists accusing them of nazi style "religious discrimination".

I don't think that is true.

It is true, however, that Scientology has accused Germany of discriminating against religions, and of persecuting Scientologists much like the Nazis did with the Jews.

Part of that tactic seemed to aim at US government officials, who, in the past, accepted Scientology's claims that Germany was violating human rights (among other reasons because it wouldn't grant Scientology tax exempt status as a "church") and accused German politicians of discriminating the cult.

When Ursula Caberta, the Commissioner for the Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority, visited the United States, Scientologists were waiting for her at the airport:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYS7SpFTEI

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Letty's news would have made my mother (irish catholic, say, in the fifties) happy....

Ah, but this ground has been lost already, re property taxes and giant compounds of Simply Amazing Religions.

The federal teat awaits.

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ossobuco wrote:

Letty's news would have made my mother happy....

Ah, but this ground has been lost already, re property taxes and giant compounds of Simply Amazing Religions.

The federal teat awaits.

The problem, IMO, is that cults like the "Church of Scientology" profit from this.

To be clear about this: If people want to believe that Xenu, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" brought billions of his citizens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft 75 million years ago, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs, that's totally okay with me.

In terms of weirdness, Scientology (the religion) is just as strange as most other religions (if you take them literally).

My quarrel is with the organisation, the "Church of Scientology". People are simply not told about the core beliefs of Scientology. People are told that other religions are accepted, that you can be a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew, and you can still join Scientology.

Only some megabucks later you learn about the Ruler of the Galaxy.

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If you ask the Scientologists to work with you to "clear", they charge big bucks. However, they also provide a guide which anybody can follow, for free. All it takes is this guide and a fellow Scientologist to work together to do it. They encourage folks to do this.

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I still don't get.

I don't care about the beliefs of Scientologists. I don't see that they're relevant to the issue. The issue is that a film company was prevented from filming because a member of the cast has beliefs that are unacceptable.

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I think Cruise was only prevented from filming on government property (i.e. military bases), for the reasons given. They haven't banned him (or the film crew) from Germany because of his 'religion'.

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HokieBird wrote:

I think Cruise was only prevented from filming on government property (i.e. military bases), for the reasons given. They haven't banned him (or the film crew) from Germany because of his 'religion'.

Yes, but if he weren't a Scientologist, would the film company have been permitted to film on government property? If the answer is yes, then the issue is the same.

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Tom Cruise, Cults, Germany

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