The Universe, Expanding Beyond All Understanding

You mean up until this time we've understood its' expansion?

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Chai

Chai wrote:

You mean up until this time we've understood its' expansion?

I'm amazed by what we have learned about the Universe in such a short time. That means we are just beginning to learn and understand as is the pattern of all science. The size of the universe just makes it more difficult even with the wonderful Hubble.

BBB

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Until we find distance is an illusion of our conciousness and lower levels of reality shape the universe's topology and constraints!

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Re: The Universe, Expanding Beyond All Understanding

New York Times Essay wrote:

As this universe expands and there is more space, there is more force pushing the galaxies outward faster and faster. As they approach the speed of light, the galaxies will approach a sort of horizon and simply vanish from view, as if they were falling into a black hole, their light shifted to infinitely long wavelengths and dimmed by their great speed. The most distant galaxies disappear first as the horizon slowly shrinks around us like a noose.

Maybe space isn't expanding at all, maybe everything in it (including us) is just shrinking, faster and faster, so it just 'looks' like everything is expanding (from out point of view). Wink

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That's what I think too.

http://www.scifimoviepage.com/images/incred.jpg

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BBB wrote-

Quote:

If you are of a certain science fiction age, like me, you might have grown up with a vague notion of the evolution of the universe as a form of growing self-awareness: the universe coming to know itself, getting smarter and smarter, culminating in some grand understanding, commanding the power to engineer galaxies and redesign local spacetime.

You should visit pubs like mine more often Bumble and you would soon disabuse yourself of such idealistic pie-in-the-sky.

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Bumble quoted-

Quote:

Dr. Krauss said. "Five billion years ago dark energy was unobservable; 100 billion years from now it will become invisible again."

Has Dr. Krauss any evidence to back up this most extreme and remarkable assertion?

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The physics of a drop of water or grain of sand is just as mysterious as is the structure of the Cosmos.
But to me it doesn't matter one iota what the universe is about from our everyday or scientific perspectives. It's no problem for me because it IS me and I am it. The same applies to you.
One thing this report points to is that the notion that a god who has built our little corner of the Cosmos just to have a place to test humans looks still more absurd.

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how can we be sure it is expanding at all? how do we know the universe is thousands of billions of light years across we could as well be trapped inside a black hole bending space into making us think its light years to anothr star while it could be just its just a drives time away.. is there space outside this universe therefore creating another universe with infinite amount of space?

When we can figure out how to escape a black whole(the boundries of our universe) then we will be able to reach other parts of this universe within seconds...

oh and one more thing.. when stars create novas and super novas they sometimes create black wholes. when the universe exploded(the big bang) couldn't it have also created a super black whole, the universe was super dense infinite amount more dense then a star..

also there is something faster then the speed of light.. how did the universe expand billions of miles in 1/4 of a second after time started(the big bang)??

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MonkeyMan09 wrote:

how can we be sure it is expanding at all? how do we know the universe is thousands of billions of light years across we could as well be trapped inside a black hole bending space into making us think its light years to anothr star while it could be just its just a drives time away.. is there space outside this universe therefore creating another universe with infinite amount of space?

When we can figure out how to escape a black whole(the boundries of our universe) then we will be able to reach other parts of this universe within seconds...

oh and one more thing.. when stars create novas and super novas they sometimes create black wholes. when the universe exploded(the big bang) couldn't it have also created a super black whole, the universe was super dense infinite amount more dense then a star..

also there is something faster then the speed of light.. how did the universe expand billions of miles in 1/4 of a second after time started(the big bang)??

The Big Bang is not a singularity like a black hole. Space/Time itself unfolded from the BB, that's not part of the equation for a singularity. They are different.

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I like that the title of this thread indicates that the expansion of the universe is essentially beyond understanding. Where is the universe expanding to, areas that are now non-universe? If so what is the nature of this area linto which the universe is expanding? Is it in a state of non-existence? If so, not everything existing is part of the universe. What is the nature of that universe that it has boundaries? Is it a unitary "entity" of some sort?
I just don't see that everyday language, like expansion, existence, cosmic boundaries is adequate to the task of such a question. Indeed, I see the question of cosmic expansion as meaningless in everyday terms.

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JLNobody wrote:

I like that the title of this thread indicates that the expansion of the universe is essentially beyond understanding. Where is the universe expanding to, areas that are now non-universe? If so what is the nature of this area linto which the universe is expanding? Is it in a state of non-existence? If so, not everything existing is part of the universe. What is the nature of that universe that it has boundaries? Is it a unitary "entity" of some sort?
I just don't see that everyday language, like expansion, existence, cosmic boundaries is adequate to the task of such a question. Indeed, I see the question of cosmic expansion as meaningless in everyday terms.

Not necessarily. Our language and conceptual base are inadequate to deal with anything outside/before our universe. But expansion is still meaningful within the Universe, even if we can't talk about what's outside/before.

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Rosborne, the problem for me is not expansion WITHIN the Universe; it's expansion OF the universe. That entails notions of the nature of the universe as a bounded entity. To me THAT'S beyond understanding and even discussion.

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JLNobody wrote:

Rosborne, the problem for me is not expansion WITHIN the Universe; it's expansion OF the universe. That entails notions of the nature of the universe as a bounded entity. To me THAT'S beyond understanding and even discussion.

Let go of your ideas of 'boundary'. Change the idea of expansion to one of unfolding. Imagine the Universe unfolding into itself, deeper and deeper, accelerating as it goes, with no end in sight.

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That will require a great stretch of my imagination. Let's see.

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JLNobody wrote:

That will require a great stretch of my imagination. Let's see.

It brings up an interesting question, is the mind capable of creating a concept which represents a physical condition which it has never experienced?

Envisioning the Universe requires us to visualize something from a perspective (dimension) we have never experienced (and can not experience directly).

We use math to rerpesent models like this, but I'm not sure we have the cognitive apparatus necessary to translate that math into a visceral experience.

Can the human mind create brand new concepts for itself which represent dimensions and perspectives we cannot experience directly? I'm not sure. We can create analogies, but they all fall flat to a certain degree (unfolding, expanding, neither quite right).

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Well stated. I agree.

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rosborne979 wrote:

MonkeyMan09 wrote:
how can we be sure it is expanding at all? how do we know the universe is thousands of billions of light years across we could as well be trapped inside a black hole bending space into making us think its light years to anothr star while it could be just its just a drives time away.. is there space outside this universe therefore creating another universe with infinite amount of space?

When we can figure out how to escape a black whole(the boundries of our universe) then we will be able to reach other parts of this universe within seconds...

oh and one more thing.. when stars create novas and super novas they sometimes create black wholes. when the universe exploded(the big bang) couldn't it have also created a super black whole, the universe was super dense infinite amount more dense then a star..

also there is something faster then the speed of light.. how did the universe expand billions of miles in 1/4 of a second after time started(the big bang)??

The Big Bang is not a singularity like a black hole. Space/Time itself unfolded from the BB, that's not part of the equation for a singularity. They are different.

ok so tell me this there was nothing befofore the big bang not even time so where did this ball of super condensed matter come from in the first place..

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Your questions point to my claim that this is--at least in terms of our common sense categories--beyond understanding and discussion. I can't imagine a before-BB state of nothingness and the source of the condensed matter. I do not reject the notion of nothingness; I just don't recognize it as an intellectual problem. To the extent that it CAN be conceptualized, that must be in terms mathematical, a language that does not correspond with our common-sense questions.

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The Universe, Expanding Beyond All Understanding

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