Germany: Picture You're Shooting Blacks in the Bronx

I heard about this story on local radio. Heard black men in the Bronx responding to this. Hunted around and found it in print.

I'm sputtering.

This is military training?

Picture a black man from the Bronx saying something nasty about your mother and shoot him?

Still sputtering.

I went to bootcamp in Rendsburg in 1988, and it was nothing like that. Of course, every army has its share of fascist pigs, and the German army is no exception.

I think, you find some digusting racism in many armies.

It is especially serious, however, when such is done in Germany.
And it's even more than stupid that this instructor is obviously still not fined.

So it's only fair that the New York Post speaks about it as our army's "Blitzkrieg" and that is was shown "Teutonic television" in reverse.

Hiya Walter, Not sure I understand what you mean by "in reverse."

I'm sure that there's racism in many armies--many everything. And I'm sure that there a many fine and decent people in the army--and everywhere else. This seems way over the line to me.

And don't forget, I'm a goil from da Bronx.

Yeah, Boidy, you are still my favorite goil from da Bronx.

This article is one more example of racism that can be found in any army.

I think Walter's remark that it makes it worse coming from the German army stems from WWII and the Nazi's. Anything that has the taint of racism coming from Germany is automatically given publicity world wide.

As soon as the shrub announced that the US was invading Iraq, I wondered how long it would take for some atrocity to happen. Abu Graib came along in all its sickening obscenity.

Do you remember from college psychology, a test that was done I think somewhere in California by a university psychology professor? I no longer remember the details, just the outcome. The rules of the experiment were that half the participants were going to be guards in a jail and the other half would be prisoners. All the details were as real as possible, to set the seen of guard and prisoner in a jail setting.

In very little time, the people who played the part of guards started to show signs of misuse of power toward the "prisoners." In some cases there was actual abuse and real fear among some of the prisoners. Some were even desparately pleading to be allowed to go home. Even the professor became affected adversly by this experiement and it had to be cancelled after only a few days.

My point is that power is almost certain to be misused, expecially in tense situations such as military training and especailly war.

I don't know if this is a sort of perversity of human nature, that anyone can become a monster if the circumstances are right. All I know for sure is that this type of behaviour must be stopped immediately and, what's more, it should be looked for by the higher ups as part of their oversight of the troops. I don't think enough attention is ever paid--Abu Graib is a perfect example--the sickness spreads and the higher ups always seem to be caught off guard and the grunts are the only ones who are punished.
At least, in this case, the German training officer was in charge and was known to be the perpetrator of this crime.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely--especially in the military, as far as I've seen in my long life.

What happens to humanity? I wish I knew the answer.

I'll google to try to find the details of the experiement. It is a chilling read.

It was called the Stanford Prison Experiment.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Diane, Glad to know I'm your favorite goil from the Bronx. I prefer not to know how many goils from the Bronx you know.

I understood what Walter alluded to re Germany. I didn't understand what he meant by 'in reverse."

I also remember the prison guard experiment. Do I remember what happened yesterday? Not entirely, but I remember the experiment.

I don't know what it is about people that causes blind mindless hate. Unreasoned. And I saw plenty of abuse of power in the corporate world. A minor example, but it exists.

This particular incident enrages me for a variety of reasons. Enrages me enough to enter a semipolitical arena to discuss it. (You won't see my name in any of the news or political threads.)

I'm incensed that this person told his troops to picture black men. I'm incensed even further that he told his troops to picture the black men saying something insulting. Not presenting a threat. Just nasty talk. And I'm incensed for an idiotic reason I'm almost embarrassed to mention. I'm from the Bronx. This has hit a nerve with me. Don't know why, but it has.

Of course you're incensed--you're a decent human being above all, and being from the Bronx, your growing up memories are still there.

I hope others read about that experiement. It says so much about human nature and how easily it can be turned into something evil.

And evil is all I can think of to name what happened with this instructor.

My "in reverse" was a wrong translation/choose of words.

I think it to be a kind of "counterattack" that the Post used terms like 'Blitzkrieg' and 'teutonic".

The original video can be found from this site:

[url=http://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/orw%FCrfe-Bundeswehr-Video-US-Politiker/586907.html]http://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/:Rassismusvorw%FCrfe-Bundeswehr-Video-US-Politiker/586907.html[/url]

I'll translate it for the Americans as soon as I get around to it. Having experienced the same kind of MG practice in the same kind of setting, probably in the same bootcamp in Rendsburg, without the racist instructions, my impression is that this is mostly an outflow of stupidity and boredom rather than of true racist hatred. At the risk of stating what's obvious, I quickly add that this is not an excuse. Stupidity has probably killed as many people as hatred has, perhaps even more.

... and exaggerated in several instances what's actually on the video. The instructor neither "barks" nor "shouts" his commands (as even Americans can hear on the original video). There's no reason to think machine gun is "heavy". (Training of this kind is usually done with blank cartiges.) There's no doubt this officer was way out of line. But it takes a lot of hype to raise this incident to the level of an international scandal. And the New York Post does fan the flames of hype in its article.

Knowing what the video is about, no translation in necessary, Thomas.

It underlines your statement about stupidity. I would add that they have obviously watched too many shoot-em'-up-kill-em'-dead movies.

My expriences to the use of maschine guns is limited to my first three months in the navy when I was trained as a "second maschine gun marksman".

Maschine guns and submaschine guns were different in 1969 but - as Thomas already said - not "heavy". (Besides that, I totally agree with the Thomas' additional remarks.)

Hi Diane! What an unusual time for an American to be up! You're not travelling in Europe, are you?

Then Al Sharpton reports death threats - coincidence?

Thanks Walter and Thomas for the clarification.

The article I posted says that this was first carried by German tv. I heard about it on local radio. I don't read the Post, which is a rag and fans any flame available.

I can't watch video on my computer, so I'll just have to go by what I read.

Yes, stupidity and boredom. Also mindless hatred. I frankly don't care whether the orders were shouted or whispered. They were offensive.

I don't know whether this story is worthy of being an "international scandal." Will things be blown out of proportion? When are they not? But it's hard to know what the right proportion is here.

I'm angry and disheartened.

Damn. No words.

Understandably enough.