PRIVILEGE

I think young people get picked a lot by security people - of course, since most of us commit crime, especially visible (as opposed to generally invisible stuff, like corporate crime, fraud etc) if we are going to do so, in fact, between the years of about 13 and 25, there is some rationality to this, I suppose!

I am sureyoung black people, in countries like yours and mine, are subject to more vigilance.

Gautam- I am certainly sensitive to your, and others' concerns. My point was that privilege is a very far reaching concept that encompasses race, gender, religion, age, social class, educational level, sexual orientation, etc. If the members want to discuss privilege as relates to black/white issues, fine with me. I thought though, that if we were discussing privilege and prejudice, we might want to look at it in its entirety.

I have a busy mind, but an open one. I tend to agree with snood regarding Black people being more targeted by police, and receiving harsher sentences. I also find it interesting that according to that theory, if this creep here in Toronto was Black, he may have actually received the sentence he deserved. Busy, yes, always busy. I do think that the issue of privilege needs to be opened up here. I think it is indeed not just Black and White, so to speak, and if we are to have a deep discussion of privilege in general, we need to open up all avenues, so we can all learn.

Never disputed this fact !! I totally agree with you.....but as I said, all things being equal....

There is no denying this fact !

Re the women and cars and sales people and so forth stuff - I don't find that, myself, at all - though I have women friends who do experience it (often when buying cars and such) - I wonder if I have developed a very commanding or something persona for such situations?

I do recall driving my car into a garage when I was very young - with a male, very unmechanical passenger - and, as he was filling the tank, I asked the young male attendant to show me where my oil drainage plug was.

He actually moved himself over to the passenger window, away from me, to address my passenger, Michael. Michael persisted, in growing desperation, in attempting to direct the attendant's attention back to me - finally, Michael firmly closed the car window, and turned his body away! I pointed out that I was both the owner of the car, and the person making the request. The attendant continued to argue that I could not possibly want to know the answer! Finally, in desperation, he said "You will get your hands dirty!" I was sufficiently cross, and amused, by then to simply throw myself under the car, and wait grimly. The young fella gave in and pointed out the drain to me. It was both very funny and very irritating. I decided to go with the amusement.

As I said, that stuff stopped happening to me years ago.

If the respondents will allow me a brief comment here...

Yes, I agree that the generic term "privilege" can rightly be fastened to a wide variety of sets of situations and combinations of dynamics and demographics. There is no denying that, but if I thought myself someone with wisdom and experience, I would caution the forum at large against another, IMO more obvious and corrosive denial.

To dismiss the issue of the magnitude of white privilege in the United States, or even to put it on an even conversational level with other privileges which share a semantic similarity, but have no where near any of the historical, psychological, profound or far-reaching effect as has (and does) the effect of white privilege in this country, is to do everyone a disservice. Especially if they are about, as I'm sure several of you are, the business of expanding and enhancing their understanding.

[A disclaimer - the above is my opinion. If others think white privilege has no more weight, and therefore should be given no more time than any other kind of privilege, then that is their opinion. I will not throw stones if that is their opinion, and I'd appreciate it if none were winged in my direction because my opinion differs.]

I think it is a huge issue snood, and I for one am willing to open my ears, and hope this thread does not digress like the last one. I have said it before, being Canadian, I am a tad naive on the problem in America regarding white privilege, and curious to hear more, especially regarding the history and current magnitude. Basically, if it does carry more weight than other forms of prejudice/privilege, I would be happy to find out why, and I would also be happy to let others discuss their own feelings regarding prejudice/privilege based on their own personal experiences. I would really like to see this thread stay friendly and informative. These are important issues.

When I see no more cherry picking of blacks for cops to stop, equal sentencing for similar crimes no matter what their color or race, equal educational and job opportunities for all members of our economy, then I think the issue of previlege will be an oxymoron. c.i.

Almost everyday of my life is a social experiment in privilege, prejudice, and pride, all accentuated by my dress, appearance, and behavior, in contrast to my work and private position. I'm sure if I were dress the part I'd make an additional 20,000+ annually.

Try crusing West Oakland c.i., or any part of Oakland for that matter and you will see the the difference. It is obvious there that people of color are stopped more often than whites. Their privilege is to be suspected of wrong doing most of the time.

It is sort of like when I lived in D.C., people used to say how can you go into the District so much arent you afraid. My response was always if you are not a black male under 30 you are safe. If you look and the D.C. stats you will see that.

In addition it should be noted that at the same time the D.C. snipers were doing there thing in the Metro area there was a weekend in Baltimore where there were five drive by shootings but it did not even make the news. The shooters were black and the dead were black.

The murder rate in Oakland is one of the worst in the nation, and as you say it's usually black against black. That was also true when we lived in a suburb of Chicago, and the south side had crime stats that went over the charts. When we were children growing up in Sacramento, our neighborhood had many blacks and Hispanics, but we never feared for our safety, because many were friends and school mates. c.i.

No quibble from me, Snood. I think that's what it's all about, what makes discussions of "affirmative action" so thorny. Goldfish don't know the name of water, they just live in it. The same with the white world in America. Whatever IS IS for us -- we grew up with certain realities and we see them as The Reality. When these Others come along and complain things aren't equal, we just don't see it, don't have any experience of it -- really have no way of judging. The educational process which has been going on since, oh, the '50's has created white "goldfish" who know the name of water now, but are damned if they can figure out how to swim outside it, or how to teach people out there in the air to swim in it.

It is worth noting that this racial divide of privilege extends to the institutional--when federal sentencing laws were revised in the Reagan era, the penalties for crack cocaine were made significantly harsher by orders of magnitude than those for powdered cocaine. The effect of this is that blacks and hispanics, but primarily blacks, suffer a disproportionate length of incarceration for possession of cocaine, which they usually possess in the crack form, as opposed to middle class whites, who usually possess powdered cocaine. If anyone were to try to tell me that this was not known by those promulgating the public law, or that this were not the intent--i'd laugh in their face. Were i black, i'd be tempted to laugh, and then punch them squarely in the nose. Of course, i'm saying this from the perspective of a stereotypic Irishman, with a highly developed sense of the absurd, and a penchant for casual violence.

um, using the terms "absurd" and "Reagan" in the same post, interesting.

I understood privilege since early childhood, being born in a middle class family in a country in which 80 percent of the people were poor. My dad was wise enough to stress that: "See that peasant boy toiling the field? He's your countryman".

Later, I learned that my middle class status was relative. A bus driver or a secretary in Europe or the USA made the same money my father did as a sales manager. And they felt they had no privileges, being born in a country where you can get more than decent living conditions with limited skills. And I learned that a schoolteacher in India makes the same money an unskilled textile worker in Mexico does (the lowest paid industry), and he feels privileged because his family is not hungry.

One has privileges and un-privileges, must learn to live with them and, mostly, must fight to end them.

IMO, class difference is the most important matter (Cfr. Sofia's, husker's and edgarblythe's posts on dress code), and the one that is changing the slowest.

Race would be the next one. An old Cuban saying said: "If you're white, you are born with a college degree in your hands; if you're mulatto, you're born with a high school diploma in your hands; if you're black, you're born with **** in your hands". It is changing, but not fast enough.

Gender is the third important one. The one that is changing the fastest, for the good of mankind.

I have been on a darkened street on vacation in an unfamiliar town--walking back to my hotel. A group of young black men approached. They were dressed in hip-hop attire. (Silly description, but the best I could do.)

I was very nervous.

Had they been in suits, or dressed like they were clubbing--in the same scenario--I wouldn't have been nervous.

If the group had been dressed similarly, but white--I would've been nervous.

Are clothes a fair thing to judge people by? No. Does it happen? Hell yes.

My sister and I were in a poorly lit parking garage in a hotel, clubbing again--and got in the elevator. Right as the door closed, two black guys appeared from nowhere and got in the elevator with us. I was a little unnerved initially, because of the spooky parking garage...before I even saw the men. Certainly, I felt a flash of fear when they got in the elevator with us. My sister turned red, and I knew she was scared. The guys were dressed for clubbing, so I sighed relief and started talking to them. I saw guys going clubbing--my sister saw black guys and categorized them as dangerous. We talked about it later.

Some people are more hung up on race than others.

I'm not certain if this really belongs here, but this thread is currently more active than the "Intolerance" and the "Perception" threads:

Blacks tip less: NPR's Morning Edition[/color]

An interesting part of the broadcast interview was that blacks and hispanics made the same comment--and it was posited that blacks expected not to get as good service, and so tipped less, while servers expected to get less in tips, and so provided poorer service. Rather seems that both sides of the equation were hoist on their own respective petards.

My brother fell in love with suits after he realized that people in Brazil (more so than stateside) treat suits differently.

That's funny, Setanta.

Okay, Craven, how do people in Brazil treat suits differently? c.i.