Frank Apisa wrote:maliagar wrote:...research did not stop in the 18th century. And the "prevailing opinion" among today's experts on the Middle Ages (historians and philosophers of science) is very different from the "prevailing opinion" the masses have been led to have (still influenced by modernist ideas).
That's why Britannica and other encyclopedias are nowadays forced to have a more balanced view of the Middle Ages. But I can tell that you haven't noticed any changes anywhere.
I am willing to read anything you have from the Encyclopedia Britannica or any other encyclopedia that asserts that the early Catholic Church was a champion of science -- or in fact, indicates that the early Catholic Church was anything but an implacable, unrelenting enemy of science.
You have not provided even one word of that -- although you have asserted it on several occasions.
Put up!
Quote:As I said:
Quote:you've shown that you're totally unaware of the developments in the philosophy and history of science, so I'll have to accept that you cannot debate this topic (but you won't admit it and stick to your 19th century prejudices).
I stand by this. You haven't brought any supporting evidence to your claims, other than the common prejudices you find in 19th century Anglo-Saxon history textbooks.
One of us is unwilling to look at the truth, Maliagar, but it is not I. You would do well to get your head out of the sand.
Quote:Frank says:
Quote:Maliagar, you have submitted the words of one individual to substantiate your position...
No Frank.
I have proved you wrong. And I've done that by quoting
Encarta, Britannica, Edward Grant (who must be out of his mind, right?
You have done nothing of the sort.
The quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica was not germane to the subject of the early Church and its treatment of science -- and you know it. Edward Grant has been disposed of as a single individual with some weird ideas -- and a person who acknowledges that he is out of the mainstream of thinking on this issue.
Try to deal with that, Maliagar. It won't hurt anything but your pride.
Quote: 
), and by suggesting you become aware of
20th century philosophy and history of science (not just "my favorite author). I've mentioned
Kuhn, Popper, Wittgenstein, and Feyerabend. I could also talk about
Duhem, Bachelard, Crombie, and many others in Europe and Anglo-America.
You are throwing names around like they are confetti. Produce quotes from reputable modern scholars who say that the early Catholic Church was a friend to science, not a foe.
YOU CANNOT DO THAT BECAUSE IT SIMPLY IS NOT SO.
Quote:Now, if you don't see (or don't want to admit) this, the problem is not in my arguments, but somewhere else. Like I said, old prejudices die hard.
New hard-headedness dies just as hard, Maliagar. I am not aware of any prejudice I have in this regard. I understand from my reading of history that the Church was not a friend to science -- and the arguments in that direction seem to be indisputable. In the meantime, you have an axe to grind. You want your church not to have been the impediment to science that it was when it had control of the world.
Tough! Live with the fact that your church was an enemy of science -- and pretty much still is.
I am happy we at least agree that it is - and was - a disgusting thing to be.
Quote:I understand: It must be a scary thing, after all these years, to at least open up to the possibility that the Catholic Church was RIGHT!
Not at all. In fact, I see the Catholic Church as being right on many things. But it must be very scary to open your eyes to the possibility that your church really was an evil institution it was at times in its early existence - and it must be just as scary to open your eyes to the fact that it was such an enemy to science.
And just what do you suggest that the church was right about; that the Earth was the center of the universe -- and that all else revolved around it????
Are you a flat-Earther?
Quote:No problem, you can end up following the path of people like Jean Paul Sartre and Oscar Wilde (or should I say Bob Hope? :wink: ), who got rid of their prejudices towards the end of their lives (when they were wiser) and RETURNED TO THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.
And what does this have to do with whether or not the Church was a friend or foe to science during the middle ages? Why do you throw this stuff in here?
Quote:You have not disproved my argument.
I am not interested in disproving your argument -- I am merely interested in showing that it is fanciful wishing dressed up as argument. And I think I have done a decent job of that. (also, see below about proving stuff.)
Quote:The only thing you've done is to reassert your prejudice about the church and learning during the Middle Ages' 1000 years.
You are asserting the church was a friend to science during the middle ages. If you cannot show that it was, YOU ARE, in effect, disproving your argument.
In any case, you are asserting a fact -- that the church was a friend rather than a foe to science during the middle ages.
Prove that in any way you can.
You have not given any evidence that it was -- and the only person you have brought forward with any comments on it at all indicated that the mainstream of scholars disagree with him.
Didn't you learn anything in school? It is not up to me to prove that the church was an implacable foe of science during those early years -- that is, as even you and your sources acknowledge -- the view of the majority of scholars.
Since you are saying that majority is wrong -- don't you understand that it is up TO YOU to do the proving? All I have to do is show that you have not proved it. I do not have to prove the opposite position.
Jeez -- I would have thought you could understand that without my help.
Quote:Quote:Drop out of this discussion if you choose...
That would be so convenient for you. However, I can see that we've reached your limit...
Maliagar, you have no idea of my limit -- but I can assure you I am nowhere near close to it. If you want to massage your ego by thinking I, or anyone else here, is afraid to tackle your Alice in Wonderland views -- you certainly can do so. In fact, as an act of friendship, allow me to hope that it makes you feel better.
The "drop out" comment was the direct result of something you said about not wanting to discuss this with me because I don't have the background - or some such rationalization.
But I am here for the long haul.
Quote:Quote:...have the sense of decency and the every day ethics to acknowledge it is because you have bitten off much more than you can chew...
No, my dear. You're the one who is talking about something that is beyond his scope.
I haven't seen one drop of evidence from you (just the "authority" of your titles).
Oh my, do be careful with your wording. This thread is about homosexuality -- and using terms like "my dear" could be misconstrued. (Now what does that "my dear" remind me of? Seems like there is another poster in A2K who uses expressions like that on me. And you did pick up the intricacies of A2K rather quickly. Hummmm!)
Have a good night, Maliagar. I am enjoying this discussion more than you can possibly imagine. I hope you stick around A2K for a very long time. A2K needs more people like you.
