Why do you believe what you believe?

Eorl, I don't think it is the same thing at all. Santa Claus is for children and adults who are young-at-heart.

There is something about Santa though. When children are young, parents tell them about Santa. When they are old enough, if their friends have not told them or they had not discovered by themselves that Santa does not exist, parents somehow break the big news to their kid. That makes it that the parents told their kids a lie all that time.

I don't mind receiving gifts though, with or without Santa.

cello,

Here I am, an adult, telling you that there are no gods. (I can't be 100% certain, just as I can't be 100% certain about Santa)

Sure, other adults disagree, which is why you need to find an objective way to determine for yourself what is true and what is not. What does the available evidence of the entire universe suggest?

Eorl, you are not 100% sure about Santa? Why?

All the evidence of the entire whole universe tell me that there is a Creator (whom I call God). Sometimes obvious things are the most difficult things to comprehend or to see. We tend to search for complicated solutions or answers when the answer is right in front of our eyes.

My notion of God does not have the form of a "man" but can be anything that humans may not even have the slightest idea what it is.

eorl, I think you have to agree santa is slightly different.
Santa gives children presents at christmas. The rest of the year he is forgotten.
I think the notion of a 'god' does quite a bit more than that. Some people need 'god' to make thier lives meaningful, to have a purpose, to tell them how to act, etc.

"No, no, what I'm saying is.. Why do Christians think the Bible is true and not the Koran? Why do Buddhists become Buddhists? All of that."

I speak for no one here but myself. Here is why I became a Buddhist over 40 years ago.

I grew up on a remote Arizona ranch with three generations of family and a multitude of other relatives. My grandparents and Great-grandparents were Southern Baptists, my Aunt was Catholic and my Uncle was/is has no known religion beyond a vague Christianity. My stepfather (cursed be his name) was LDS, and when we were in town, my sisters and I attended Mormon services. I was in awe of the desert, its distances, colorations, and the suddenness of teeming life after a hard rain. I loved the lightening and the echoing thunder off of our mountains.

I became an LDS priest. I served the sacraments regularly, and made monthly visits to parishioners. The fly in the ointment was that the more I learned from studying the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and other Christian studies, the more questions I had. Some of those we visited monthly raised other issues for which there were no ready answers, and research often failed to provide anything satisfactory. I carried around a beatup copy of Voltaire, and had begun dipping my toes into the Existentialists. By the time I entered the military, I had gained a slightly unsavory reputation with my family and church for increasingly questioning dogma.

While in the service, I was appalled at the injustices I saw committed in the name of glorifying God. Those who were supposed to be Shepard's too often were as vicious as wolves. At some point, I discovered that I had lost my childish faith in the absoluteness of Christianity. For a while, I vacillated between Atheism and Agnosticism. At the time I was reading a lot of Existentialist work, but it seemed to me that ultimately Existentialism boiled down to either Existence is absurd, or that Might Makes Right is just as valid as other worldviews. For me Existentialism in the end has no moral/ethical grounding. This initiated wider research into the nature of religion, and study into the world's religious groupings.

I was greatly influenced by the "Varieties of Religious Experience", and "The True Believer". I found that both Judaism and Islam contained many of the same faults that disturbed me about Christianity. Both Christianity and Islam preach love, but are dedicated to conversion of the rest of humanity … even by the use of force. One of the early constraints for my study was to find a religion that stressed Free Will, because Predestination makes of nonsense of human striving. That God should alone favor a single people out of all humanity and sentient beings of the Universe, is a prescription for conflict. The varieties of Abrahamic faith, with an omnipotent, omnipresent and omni-prescient Deity who alone created and rules the Universe failed to meet my criteria for a religion that must be everywhere, and at all times directly available to every conscious being regardless of their upbringing, state of literacy and ability to understand the world.

Hinduism was still far too dependent upon a pantheon of Gods, but in the Mahabarata and the descriptions of Brahma, I could see the potential for a more esoteric "form"/"being" of a universal "god". This sent me back to study the Christian mystics, Kabala and Sufi writings that also speak to an esoteric God that is qualitatively different than the popular views of the Deity of the Abrahamic faiths. There are enough similarities in the esoteric forms to suggest that there might indeed be a religion that is universally accessible, and that "God" is indeed universal, and mystically knowable. The problem with mysticism is that it seems to restrict the knowledge and experience of "God" to a few elect whose esoteric knowledge, practice and ritual are "hidden" and secret.

The ancient Gods of Greece and Rome were picturesque, and the stories of them were often compelling, but it was impossible for me take them seriously as the foundation of a real and viable religion in the 20th century. The same objections applied to the Gods of ancient Egypt, and Mesoamerica. Aboriginal religions all seemed to rely heavily on sympathetic magic to influence a pantheon of Deities that differed only in detail from the ancient religions of the Old World.. This appeared to confirm anthropological studies into how and why humans feel a deep need to bind them selves together in religious dogma. It increasingly seemed evident that the whole notion of supernatural God/Gods was a dead-end, and that the Abrahamic religions were no better nor worse than any other religion that worshiped the supernatural.

While searching through those religions that were God(s) based, I was at the same time drawn to the "godless" religions of China, and India. Confucianism deals with human social relationships, and has little to say about our relationship to the universal. The transcendentalism that is inherent to philosophical Taoism is very attractive, just as 19th century Western Transcendentalism appealed to the romanticism of that time and place. Buddhism has a more fully developed theology than Taoism, and so I was led to the study of Buddhism, and the Jaines. Both developed out of esoteric Hinduism, and both bring the Universal out of the closet and make it available to all sentient beings. One doesn't have to live multiple lifetimes of gathering merit to realize the Universal, but can attain merger with the Ineffable instantly. The Buddhist focus on understanding suffering and the means of defeating it was for me an important milestone in becoming Buddhist.

Of the various forms, schools and sects of Buddhism, I found that Chan, or Zen Buddhism was the most satisfying and consistent with what we moderns think we know of how the universe came to be and is constructed. I happened to find a world renowned Master of Soto Zen who brought me along, and taught me the beginnings of the discipline that countless earlier seekers had found useful to their pursuit of meaningful religious experience. I've tried to follow that Path, and have had notable success with it. The Path still leads onward, and perfection of full Enlightenment lies ahead, but in the meantime Buddhist practice has proven to me its ability to relieve and mitigate suffering while inspiring the sort of awe that makes religion a continual feature of the human condition.

Asherman:
Wow, I really respect your opinion. You have evidently thought about it very very carefully, and educated yourself immensely to aid your quest for truth.

Your post makes me want to raise a few points:

Does someones religious beliefs/ opinion become more valid if it takes a journey through these different faiths?
For example, My mother was brought up christian and has stayed christian for the rest of her life, she has never questioned it, knows nothing of other religions, or scientific theories. She will not debate or argue over it, she just accepts it.
Is Ashermans opinion more 'valid' than my mother's opinion?

Also, I was interested in the observation that the muslim and christian religions preach love, yet want to convert the world, even if it means force. Well, we all know that it isn't every christian/muslim who would use force, just the extremists. Yet christians are told to bring people to god. When I used to attend an evangelical church people often said 'what kind of christian are you if you don't help other people find god?' And in a sense i can agree with this, because christians believe that if you don't accept jesus, then you will go to hell.
So it becomes an interesting paradox. Meddling in other people's beliefs isn't always the most loving thing to do, yet if you add belief into the equation, then it does become the most loving thing to do.

I just realised this last point was really obvious, but hey.

Thanks, Asherman, for sharing your Buddhist experience. Has your family finally accepted your following Buddhism?

TPQ, what do you think yourself about your first question? Are you Christian too (I assume not from your posts) and if not, why?

Well, its a bit of a long story but:
I was a devout christian because I had been brought up that way, no other reason. I really believed it, really, really believed it. I made my 'promise' when I was about 9, and used to talk to God in my head all day.
Alongside this, I always had a vivid imagination as a child, and basically, I wanted to be Harry Potter.
When I was about 12, I met some new friends who swore and stuff, and thought my religion was weird. And that christmas we went to see lord of the rings, and we thought it was so cool we all decided to become wiccans.
Obviously, this was easier for them, having no religion in the first place. I didn't say anything, but I found it very difficult to give up my religion. I used to cry to God, and say sorry for all my sins, and cry because I thought I would go to hell. Then, when I was with my friends I would go back on what I had said, and think 'F*** this! I wanna be like Gandalf!'
I was very immature.
Then one day I thought, 'God doesn't exist! I haven't been talking to Jesus all this time in my head, I've been taking to myself!' And after that I gradually forced myself to stop being a christain.
That was a really really hard thing to do. I had to find a new purpose in life, new answers to questions. I always used to say to myself that I would return to the religion in a couple of years, once I had tasted freedom. It was like quitting a relationship 'Oh, we might get back together, etc.'

I did a few wiccan spells with my friends, but that never really took off. We did a spell for luck once. Really nice in my back garden at midnight. We lit candles and recited stuff out of books and things, and dressed in robes.
But anyway, this fizzled out after a year or so. Especially when the Lord of the Rings obsession was over, and I didn't think Legolas was hot anymore. Also, I figured that it was stupid to resent christianity and be a witch just because it was 'cooler.'
Then when doing my philosophy and ethics As Level, I fell in love with A.J. Ayer and David Hume and people, and I became completely hostile to religion.

Now however Im a bit more agnostic. If don't think there is such a thing as a christian God, but since reading the 'Road Less Travelled' I accept the possibility of a higher force.

Nowadays I'm not bothered about religion as such, I don't believe anything, but Im reading a few books on hinduism and buddhism just to educate myself about other religions. I have my whole life to decide. I don't really know why I have started coing back on the spirituality and religion forums again recently.

Anyway, as you can see I am an easilly influenced indiviual who changes her mind a lot. Im really sorry if you thought you were going to get something a bit more profound. My post is nothing like Ashermans, but I made a lot of my mind up when I was still a child.

Anyway, I would be interested to see what you think.




In moments of crisis, I still pray to God. Even though I don't really believe in him. I did it a few hours ago when I couldn't find my camera. Maybe thats a result of my conditioning, and it will be with me for life. (?)

I'm no longer terribly interested in "validity". Religion serves many purposes. It is part of our social and cultural history, the foundation of what we consider proper and improper behavior; it where we find hope and meaning. All religions are complex where most followers find institutional justification for their social needs and at least provisional answers to difficult questions like "Why"? Most religions have "clearly" defined dogma, ritual, and doctrine that has been developed by generations of religious scholars and religious leaders. Some folks have a transcendental, or mystical experience, and that experience will be communicated in the religious language of the dominant culture. If a person has a charismatic personality and is able to communicate their experience, they may end up starting a new religion that will first draw disciples who organize and standardize the Master's Teachings that is eventually adopted to the needs of the masses.

I strongly suspect that the actual experiences of Siddhartha, Abraham, Jesus, and Momammed may have been more similar than not. Abraham's experience took place in a world where there were many competing ideas about God, and what set his vision apart was the assertion that there aren't a multitude of Gods, but a single universal principle. Abraham personalized his God, and out of the Judaic dogma Jesus' and Mohammed's messages found found their expression. Those later religious movements unfortunately were already conditioned to the notion of a finite, mechanical universe overseen and controlled by a very human like God. The Abrahamic God created everything, favores one over all others, and from time to time interferes in the course of nature, and will eventually bring about the End of Time.

Siddhartha's Enlightenment experience was cast in the terminology of Hinduism, and had the good fortune to follow in the footsteps of the Jaines. The notion of infinite cycles of birth, preservation and destruction lent itself better and more closely with the Enlightenment experience. Acceptance of the world still found its expression in Buddhism, but unlike the Mother Religion, in Buddhism each individual is freed of the chains of causality. A Hindu might live many lifetimes before their soul acquires enough merit to move up the ranks of caste toward eventual merger into the universal Brahma. In Buddhism and Jainism there are no gods, no soul, and no need for social/moral castes. Here the world view most naturally is spoken of as immaterial, or illusory. Instead of a world of multiplicity, the Buddhist sees the world as a dream-like expression of the Great Ineffable.

In the West we've developed a world-view that places a premium on humanistic values. That is at least partially a legacy of Greek and Roman religious ideas. The so-called European barbarians of ancient times enrich us with their sagas, and emphasis on individual courage and passion for independence and liberty. Christianity was an important factor in quelling the fierce and bloody raids of the wild men, and introduced collective mercy where little had previously existed. Christianity preserved some semblance of civilization in the thousand years between Rome and the Renaissance. The spread of Islam throughout South Asia gave unity to nomadic tribes, and produced another "high" civilization that the modern world would come to depend upon. The religion of the Meso-Americans is still around today in the peculiarly Indo-hispanic culture of Mexico and the American Southwest. And so it goes.

On the other hand, the opinions of those who have seriously studied a subject for years are almost always superior to the opinions of those who never spent a day questioning and seeking more knowledge. A scientist of great genius, may be an utter fool when it comes to subjects outside their specialties.

BTW, we shouldn't forget that the Inquisition tortured those who suspected of not faithfully believing in Catholic dogma, and burning people alive at the stake with the justification that "better to suffer the temporary torments on earth, than eternity in Hell ... the Inquisition has only the loving intent of bringing all souls into the Holy Faith". This sort of wacky thinking eventually so sickened Europe that we in the West turned to a more secular foundation for governance. Islam doesn't yet seem to have accepted the idea that Theocracies are nasty, brutal ways of structuring government and insuring humanistic values.

TPQ, thanks for being so forthright. No, I did not expect your story to be "profound" or anything, I just wanted to hear your story, and I appreciate that you are willing to share it with us. Maybe knowing how long you have been away from Christianity would have helped me to understand your comments better, however I will try to be as frank as possible in expressing my impressions.

I was surprised when I read that you had to force yourself to stop being a Christian, and that you thought that not being Christian gives you a taste of freedom. Did you feel bound by the religion because you did not choose it? Did you think that not believing in the Christian God, you are a freer person because you can decide on your own what you want to do, or to be able to think whatever you want to think, and not feel guilty or sinful? For example, that men came from apes.

Why did you think you may go back to the religion? Out of habit maybe? Or maybe because deep inside yourself, you know that the Christian religion is right and true, and maybe you were just having maybe a "teenager crisis" (to be the same as your peers who were not Christians, to try something new and cool out of boredom, etc.)?

Will you ever stop praying to God? Maybe not, but maybe with the passage of time, you will do it less often, and in times of crisis only, and certainly not for a camera.

What was the purpose of your life before for you to have to find a new purpose? Why do you think it would be different or necessary to have a new one or to have one at all?

Well, I am glad that you are in this Spirituality and Religion forum. I think you need to discuss out your feelings about being "on your own", i.e. without any religion backing. There is, to me, nothing deeper than to search to know yourself. Whether you will decide to go back to Christianity, or choose another religion, or be without religion, or believe or not believe in God, this time, it will be your own decision, and I think it will be the "right" decision for you.

I can't prove Santa does not exist. Nobody can.

What evidence is there of any gods? Aren't you just throwing your hands in the air and saying "I can't comprehend everything...must be a magical being!" Are you one who believes in the god-of-the-gaps, assuming everything you don't understand is a god's magic?

Indeed the truth is quite obvious. There never have been any gods.

How many gods that have been assumed to exist by others, do you NOT believe in? Poseidon? Zeus? Athena? Allah? Shiva? The Rainbow Serpent?

Eorl, the evidence to me is everything that exists around me, there must be "someone" who created it.

Yes, I am throwing my hands in the air and say, "I don't know. It is not magical, there is an explanation but I don't know it."

The truth is so obvious that nobody knows the answer. Not me, at least. Thousands of years have passed, and millions of men have thought about the same question and got no answer. You are free to think otherwise, I don't dispute your ideas.

I don't believe in any gods other than God, the Creator of all things.

I respect your non-belief, I respect everyone's religion, but I have my own belief. As I have said it in another thread, there is no right or wrong, no better or worse. It is a completely personal thing whether one believes in God or no.

By the way, do I understand you right? You, and nobody, can prove that Santa does not exist, but you are sure that god(s) do not exist?

That is faulty logic. The obvious response is...if your "someone" created it....then who created them?

No, the point is that nobody can prove that they DON"T exist. You can't prove a negative.

I'm sure there is no Christian God to the extent that I'm sure there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster. (ie not 100%....but....)

This is a really interesting thread. And that's a good question Eorl, though the answer may have nothing to do with logic (guess only).

The thing about God, is no one can prove he doesn't exist (at least, I can't see how it's possible).

For many, there is no other sensible explaination for life itself.

Were a God to exist, that does not automatically mean that said God wants a religion to worship him.

TPQ, your's in an interesting Journey. Perhaps you are easily influenced, but then again, perhaps yours is just an intuitive mind that hasn't yet found whats tickling the back of it.

Why do they not answer honestly.... "I don't know"...without leaping to ridiculous conclusions about superbeings?

Because they would like an explanation?

We being humans, we possess both great curiousity and great imagination...though once people are convinced their imagination is real, that may greatly limit that imagination.

Besides, if there is no harm in a belief system, then I don't begrudge people believing in such.

Seems contradictory to me....greatly limited imagination is harmful, to the individual and to the species.

Since when is "liking an explanation" a good enough reason for declaring it to be true? Scientists specifically guard against that in case it corrupts their results.

That's an interesting viewpoint.

I personally would say that the world needs a balance of conservative peoples and dreamers/creators. Having come from a christian background...and of the friends I still keep... they limit their belief structures true, but I see none of this 'harm' in them that you are saying exists.

...now if we are talking about fanatical Christians...then that's a different issue (as it is with fanatics of any belief/persuasion)

Perhaps it is because what constitutes 'harm' could be a subjective thing (like the debates on what constitutes good & evil)