THE BRITISH THREAD II

Out of all the clothing advertised at the bottom of this page on Back to School they have chosen the "back panties".

We continue to accuse each other of evading the issue. That's not very productive, now is it.

I think I have answered the above point. I think if would be a good idea, if it could ever be accomplished, which is of course impossible.
But it's shrinking. They can't get recruits for the priesthood in many countries.

I don't mind if people want to pray to their god, or build nice buildings to do it in. Many of the noblest creations of man have been directed along these lines. But "The Church" is not about that any more, so it seems to me.

I have re-read the thread from the point you asked about the Pope's visit. I have evaded nothing. You saying I have is not true. You have evaded plenty.

The only thing I am guilty of is restraint. I have been careful to be discreet. Theology is not discreet.

You have evaded all the main points. What is the root cause of the perversion? What is the root cause of all perversions? If the perversion exists as a fact due to cultural socialisation what use is it to focus on the small proportion of priests (there are 600,000 priests) and thus distract attention from the real cause. Suppose I asserted that the real cause was the decline in the Church's influence and I further asserted that Media is an opponent of that influence for a number of reasons associated with its profitability. Then, and I can make a good case for the assertions based on the proposition that "two can live as cheaply as one" is anathema to big business and the Media which advertises its products, we are not dealing with a few mavericks but a massive conspiracy to encourage perversion for money by highly paid and well educated people whose every word you are suspended upon.

Media also influences priests.

You evaded my point that the rejection of the Church's teachings on sexual matters results in the demeaning of women. And right here we have the same system at work. Those who reject the teachings on sexual matters are forever referring to those who accept them as misogynists when they are the ones who are the real misogynists to such an extent that Sir Cliff Richard was motivated to put them in the picture with Living Doll.

We know women are demeaned by abortion from the obvious fact of how many abortions are conducted and how few women any of us know who have had one. The secretive nature of the business points directly to the shame a woman feels at having participated in such a grotesquely un-natural act. A blasphemy of human nature itself and of the life process. What causes the conception of unwanted babies if not utter, irresponsible selfishness. A moment's glory for which a baby pays with its life in messy circumstances hidden from view. Shouldn't we be addressing the growth, under Media's baleful influence, of utter, irresponsible selfishness which is also the cause of the financial crisis and the general madness. And Media benefits from the madness too as people search its productions for advice and guidance which it just loves providing on account of how cheaply it can be composed and dramatically presented.

It's a very complex picture Mac and I have hardly scratched the surface.

There are a number of reasons for having a celibate priesthood and it could be that the strain of celibacy proves too difficult. But one of those reasons is its connection with the insistence on poverty. When priests were allowed to marry their poverty caused them to be able to only find wives among the very lowest of women. Producing a situation which detracted from the Church's position in society as you might easily imagine. If the poverty requirement is lifted, as with the C of E, the Church quickly becomes a business venture. Like Media. Vocations to make money are all that is left.



I take it from that that you are in favour of the abolition of the Church. It is certainly not impossible. Monarchies were abolished and a few exist in name only. Why couldn't the Vatican become like the Parthenon.

It's easy to be in favour of the abolition of an institution when it is not abolished. You get two bites of the cherry. You get the benefits of the institution and the benefits of opposing it and making a noise about it. You should think about our descendents who might end up with no cherry to bite at all.

If you think this is a long post it is nothing to what I could write on these very important matters. They go way beyond you having a sputtering session in front of your TV or over your salaciuous breakfast reading.

I really have no idea.
But people should not sign up for one thing, and practise another. They should practise what they preach, in effect.
But I admit of human frailties in all things. That's why we need checks and balances. I do not forgive the Church for trying to protect itself while its clergy is harming innocents. That is the key point here, leaving the other matters aside.

That has disappointed everybody Mac. Organisations do it though. All of them.

You might even call it a perversion. But it stems from a period, or most of it does, when kids were to "be seen and not heard". And now we are in a period when kids are untouchable and must be protected from any risk to their welfare. There is an argument about which is the best way to bring kids up. There are no easy choices as the blitz of "bringing up baby" books and videos proves.

I don't know if Stonyhurst College is still the most expensive public school in England but it used to be. Summerhill was a rival for cost and that place borders on the eccentric.

Priests run and teach at Stonyhurst and only rich people can afford to send their boys there (I think it might be co-ed now but I'm not sure). And rich and influential people do send their kids there. Atheists are prepared to go through the motions of pretending religious belief in order to get their kids into Catholic schools. Thousands of them according to a report I read.

And I don't accept that all the victims were "innocent". And you shouldn't either. Which is, of course, and it pains me that I need to say it, not to say some of them weren't.

And what conclusions are we supposed to arrive at from being told that you don't forgive the Church? It is difficult for anybody to do. But that is no reason to tar the whole edifice with the disgraceful actions of a few. It doesn't even begin to be a reason.

The key point is what causes perversion. I am arguing that Media and the decline of Christian values are the causes. To support the former and denigrate the latter will thus cause more perversion and the fuss will simply make the perpetrators more cunning and more ruthless.

BTW--Aljazeera are giving the Belgium story big coverage which should help in re-orienting your thinking a trifle.

There's really no point in me putting my inarticulate 1p's worth - I'm not an effective arguer - besides, I am a product of a catholic upbringing, and a woman, so I see things from a different perspective...

I think about this subject often, recently read a Canadian book called The Bishop's Man, I highly recommend it McT.

My honest, but simplistic thoughts on this are:

Any isolated, close-knit group will close ranks when one of their own is threatened. It is seen throughout history.

A group that lives by myth and ritual and requires the members to stifle and deny their most basic instincts, will eventually decline and fade away as people become more educated/enlightened. However, once that group is given power, corruption will naturally follow. It is inevitable.

I have no personal experience of sexual abuse at the hands of a priest, but I know people who have. I do have experience of physical and psychological abuse, by both Nuns and Priests. To me, Catholicism is an anathema.

Group hug anyone?

x

The Pope just happens to be a catholic, or is widely believed to be. I'm not only against his lot. All organised religions have similarities, and I'm against them all.
The Roman Catholics have made it easier, by recent egregious behaviour, to take issue against them, that's all.
I think most crimes against humanity in history have been caused by, or committed under the banner of, religion.

now you've done it.

bets on how long it takes mount spendi to erupt...

Yes. Isn't that sad? Although you would be better to widen that description out to "faith" schools- though it's equally true for Catholic shchools of course.

And coming as I do from the west of Scotland, I know what damage to society separation of schools on religious lines does.

Hugs, Smorgs, and not simplistic at all.

I can't erupt Rockie. I never have been able to. With such simplistic opinions being expressed my usual reaction is pity and I sometimes try to educate those expressing them. They are easily expressed when those doing so are in no danger of having to live in a de-Christinised society due to the iceberg being 7/8ths underwater and they haven't a thought for what future generations will have to contend with when they have killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. I put it down to them being oblivious to the fact that golden eggs were laid for them. They seem to have no idea that religious precepts originate in pragmatic policies and are given divine colouration to make them stick when they run in radical contradistinction to the nature of animal organisms.

Lord of the Flies makes the point.

Young lads made their living in Pagan times by enticing older men to diddle them. Tiberius employed a troupe of them.

Is any institution safe when it can be attacked on the basis of what a handful of its members do? And with 600,000 priests we are talking about a handful.

No!! It's all in the service of justifying sexual licentiousness. A Media must. And self defeating because when sexual licentiousness is normal they'll have nothing arousing to write and talk about.

Why do you say that Mac. The report I saw was referring to well-heeled middle and upper middle class people who were desperate to avoid a secular education in our state schools for their kids. And property values in the areas where these schools were located were at a premium.

What's your reason for saying they are sad people?

What about scones?

x

Anyway, I'm going up to try and fix my shower with dental floss. Went all the way to B & Q for a kitchen light fitting and forgot the teflon tape! I'm gutted AND I don't even like the light, far too intense, looks like close encounters in my kitchen.

x

Just diverting...

After all, it's the mundane that occupies our thoughts most.

x

It's the mundane that occupies mine too. Pre-Christianity--no scones, no showers, no dental floss, no B&Q, no kitchen light fittings, no Teflon, no washing machines, etc etc all the way through a million telephone directories and completely oblivious that a golden goose had laid the lot because of thinking it had all grown on the trees and without the faintest idea how to resurrect a dead goose or even a care about it seeing as it's not dead yet so it's okay to talk big about killing it.

It is impossible to think of anything more absurdly simplistic that imagining that things will continue in the same old way with no Church of Rome. It's like those people who are always going to start their own business but have no idea what it will be or how to go about it.

It is our fate to enjoy a near perfect knowledge of the defects and failings of the systems that sustain our lives, while we remain oblivious of those that will eventually emerge from the bright new ideas that replace them.

Perhaps Marx & Lenin really believed that they could "create" a new "socialist man" who would place the good of society ahead of his own. Perhaps the new politically correct man will suffer the same fate.

It's a certainty George. PC has no structure. It's a bit like a book of quotations.

Any fool can tear a structure down. All you need is a wrecking ball.

...and scones.

x

Faith schools get better results because of better discipline, and because they can avoid taking unpromising material. They can select.
I think it's the results the parents want, not the religion. In fact, many couples pretend to have a faith they haven't got, simply to get their kids into a stable school.

Smorgs, dental floss won't do it, you'll be winding for ever. Mind the thread in the fitting, it's only plastic.