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THE BRITISH THREAD II

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 05:27 pm
@McTag,
I agree and sympathize with your dilemma. However life and real morality are often more complex than the simple constructs we are sometimes encouraged to accept. I don't have any simple answers to the riddles before us.

Think of it in these terms. We have already noted that the individualism and freedom so beneficially emphasized in the Scottish enlightenment was sometimes accompanied by bits of rather dour Calvanistic judgementalism that in fact contradicted the bacic themes of the Enlightenment itself. I'm trying to help you separate the two.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 08:45 am
@georgeob1,

I can usually see two sides of any story, I'm a fairly typical liberal in that respect.
No Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, me. To say nothing of Anne Coulter. Now these are very unforgiving people.

Except where Tony Blair is concerned. Maybe because I went so far out of my way to indicate to him the path he should follow. Or not follow, obviously

Polly Toynbee has an essay about him in The Guardian today, which starts:

"Iraq was Tony Blair's downfall, engraved eternally on his reputation. What irony, then that this was his one act of political bravery; persuading a reluctant parliament and people to join the war, he risked all his political capital on George W Bush's disastrous adventure. There was no personal mileage in it, no glory, no popularity.

Unlike much of his pragmatic populism, this calamity sprang from a belief whose origins the Chilcot inquiry is now trying to unravel. Was it just the conventional British foreign policy of cleaving to our fictitious special relationship, whatever the cost? Or a mistaken application of his famous Chicago speech on liberal interventionism? (Remove any dictator you can " as if Iraq were merely a bigger Kosovo.) Either way it branded the decade's politics, soured Labour's support and overshadows the memory of what good Blair did."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/dec/22/tony-blair-icons-of-decade
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:59 am
I am less familiar than you with the details of either the process Blair followed in the cabinet and Rarliament or the ongoing inquiry. There's a lot I don't know about it.

However we too have analogous issues to deal with over the Iraq intervention. Perhaps unlike the UK, there is a large (if minority) segment of the population here that defends the intervention either as good in itself or at least better than what its opponents would have us do. America and Iraq have paid a high price for the tramsformation there, but it appears to be real and may well prove to be lasting. However, for broader reasons I have concluded that it wasn't worth the effort (However that is another subject.).

The present confrontation between the West and the Moslem world is very real. It has many significant elements; (1) the legacy of a colonial past - just ninety years ago nearly every Moslem in the world lived under the rule (misrule in their eyes) of one European power or another.; (2) the North African and Middle eastern campaigns of WWII and the subsequent exodus of displaced and horribly persecuted European Jews to Palestine; (3) The Cold war and the attendant treatment of Moslem countries as pawns in a larger game by both the U.S. & its allies and the USSR;(4) The enormous transfers of (essentially unearned) wealth to petroleum producing Moslem states ; (5) Truly enormous demographic differences between the Moslem states immediately to the south of a fast depopulating Europe.

Often it appears that the critics of this or that action taken with at least the intent of addressing this unfolding confrontation have nothing whatever to offer with respect to this very real issue other than moralistic judgements on the specific action itself. Life just isn't that simple.

I agree we have our Calvanists too and you have named a few. There are many others who merely appear to be more modern and politically correct.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 11:05 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I am less familiar than you with the details of either the process Blair followed in the cabinet and Rarliament or the ongoing inquiry. There's a lot I don't know about it.

However we too have analogous issues to deal with over the Iraq intervention. Perhaps unlike the UK, there is a large (if minority) segment of the population here that defends the intervention either as good in itself or at least better than what its opponents would have us do. America and Iraq have paid a high price for the tramsformation there, but it appears to be real and may well prove to be lasting. However, for broader reasons I have concluded that it wasn't worth the effort (However that is another subject.).

The present confrontation between the West and the Moslem world is very real. It has many significant elements; (1) the legacy of a colonial past - just ninety years ago nearly every Moslem in the world lived under the rule (misrule in their eyes) of one European power or another.; (2) the North African and Middle eastern campaigns of WWII and the subsequent exodus of displaced and horribly persecuted European Jews to Palestine; (3) The Cold war and the attendant treatment of Moslem countries as pawns in a larger game by both the U.S. & its allies and the USSR;(4) The enormous transfers of (essentially unearned) wealth to petroleum producing Moslem states ; (5) Truly enormous demographic differences between the Moslem states immediately to the south of a fast depopulating Europe.

Often it appears that the critics of this or that action taken with at least the intent of addressing this unfolding confrontation have nothing whatever to offer with respect to this very real issue other than moralistic judgements on the specific action itself. Life just isn't that simple.

I agree we have our Calvanists too and you have named a few. There are many others you didn't cite who merely appear to be more modern and politically correct.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:25 pm
@georgeob1,

Quote:
Often it appears that the critics of this or that action taken with at least the intent of addressing this unfolding confrontation have nothing whatever to offer with respect to this very real issue other than moralistic judgements on the specific action itself. Life just isn't that simple.


I think we could start with the truth. Square dealing, treating people honestly.

Not all muslims are in the thrall of the mad mullahs. We can appeal to moderate muslim opinion, but not if we try to pull strokes like Iraq.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 01:51 pm
@McTag,
In principle that's true. Unfortunately we are dealing with a long legacy of western (mostly European) abuses, and one would have to look very hard to find dominant moderate views in the Islamic world. There are exceptions of course, and for the most part we are accepting and encouraging them - Indonesia is a good example. Even in relatively prosperous and modern Islamic states such as Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and of course Iran there are powerful anti western attitudes and policies, both domestic and in terms of support for international terrorist or resistance movements. In terms of both proximity and demography I don't think Europe in particular has enough time to save itself through such methods.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 10:35 am
@georgeob1,

Again with the domesday demographic. I can't make up my mind on that. It seems the numbers stack up, but it's hard to imagine nonetheless.

Odd, that most powerful muslims (mullahs and Bin Laden excepted) seem to want to emulate the west, and western ways.

On the subject of Osama bin Laden, there was an essay in the paper this week by a British commentator, which contained the following passage:

"Why, then, does he (bin Laden) remain such a potent symbol for the global jihadist movement? The answer, I believe, is that he has been lucky in his enemies, particularly George Bush and Tony Blair. The failings of the Bush and Blair governments have been the remaking of Bin Laden in the wake of 9/11. Where there was unity after those attacks, they created global division; where there was a desire for international co-operation, they pursued violent unilateralism; and, most of all, through their language they presented the war on terror as a struggle between different "value systems" " in other words, between east and west. Bin Laden couldn't have asked for a better backdrop to his agenda."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/22/osama-bin-laden-icons-of-decade

I agree.
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 01:22 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
I agree.

I'm sure Chamberlain would have as well, McT.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 02:50 pm
@Ticomaya,
It's too easy a smear Tico. Mr Chamberlain was PM of a nation which was in no state to fight a war with Germany. And neither were any allies he had.

The two cases have hardly a point of similarity.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 04:49 pm
@spendius,

None, I would say.

Tico is a silly billy.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 05:50 pm
@McTag,
I think that Tico has hit on the essential point, and done so in fewer words than I would have used.

It is generally an easy matter to rationalize inaction in the face of a complex and serious threat on the basis of narrow moral issues as the author of the Grardian piece did. However, that doesn't mean that doing so is necessarily wrong. History offers us many often contradictory lessons on such situations, and it is generally not possible to know with certainty which applies.

In the case at hand , I believe the evident facts that the bin Laden organization had been conducting an escalating series of attacks on the U.S., (and in Europe) for a decade before 9/11, , and that they and other Islamists had already established a network of agents and, equally important, sympathizers in Europe, American and, indeed worldwide -- all based on rage against the whole spectrum of western intrusions over the previous century or so - and all long before the reactions of Bush and Blair, very strongly suggests that the facile arguments of the author of the Guardian piece are inappropriate in this case, and, instead something more like the lessons of 1938 apply.

The historical fact is that at Munich in 1938 Britain and France together did indeed have the power (but not the will) to thwart Hitler's reckless risk taking (spendius' assertion notwithstanding). However the combined effects of the earlier Popular Front government in France and the weariness of Britain and its already gravely ill Prime Minister combined to let them betray Czechosolvakia and, as well their own vital interests the new order in Europe they so arrogantly imposed just 19 years earlier in Paris. Though history now reveals Hitler's political vulnerabilities at the moment, the Western powers then found it all too easy to rationalize their capitulation on narrow moral grounds.

My own conclusion that our intervention in Iraq was unwise is based mostly on the observation that in worrying and taking (often imperfect) action against all external threats to the West we have created a situation in which Europe has to worry about nothing and instead merely carps about the side effects and imperfections in our actions. Perhaps we (and you) would be better off if we withdrew from NATO and its attendant security obligations, leaving Europe to contemplate alone the hazards to the east and South in its own neighborhood, and the United States to concern itself with emerging rivals.

The demographic numbers are not only convincing in themselves, their effects are already visible. These things once advanced are very hard to reverse, and it is now nearly too late.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:01 pm
@georgeob1,
If the will to resist wasn't there then we weren't ready to fight. What use is power without the will?

As for withdrawing from NATO--you must be joking George. You'll be proposing that the UN be relocated to Bejing next.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:05 pm
@spendius,
I'm not joking at all. Moreover that view is growing in this country (prominentlky among some in the current administration - though their reasons may be different from mine).
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:07 pm
@georgeob1,
From 1% to 2%. That's growing.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:10 pm
@spendius,
You are wrong. It is discussed frequently among senior military here folks as well (their experiences with our Alklies in Iraq and Afghanistan haven't helped in this regard)..
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:13 pm
@georgeob1,
So?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:16 pm
@spendius,
So it's an idea fairly rapidly gaining currency in disparate parts of the political spectrum here and one which may well manifest itself in action. Most Americans wouldn't mind seeing the UN depart as well. Few organizations are held in lower regard than it here.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:21 pm
@georgeob1,
Discussion is not action George. It is easy to discuss silly ideas without any reference to them being put into practice.

That's what anti-IDers on the evolution threads don't understand. It's a form of being irrelevant whilst making a noise.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 06:33 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Discussion is not action George. It is easy to discuss silly ideas without any reference to them being put into practice.


Agreed. However, discussion is almost always a precursor to actions that do occur. NATO assignments were once "career enhancing" for our military offcers: now that's where they put drones and low performers. I hear the subject discussed from multiple sources in the military, as well as business and even some academic communities. Our policy of encouraging the growth of a coherent European commumity is, at least in some quarters a related matter.

NATO is increasingly becoming a diplomatic brueaucracy of ever decreasing revelance to real issues of security. The fact that the European members won't even allow the development of military planning for the defense of new members in Central Europe, from Poland to the Baltics illustrates both the dangerous illusions of the Western European powers and the increasing vacuity of the whole structure. Add to that the persistent unwillingness of the European members to meet their agreed defense expenditures and our growing frustrations with absurd restrictions imposed in joint operations in Afghanistan and other places, and American participants come quickly to the realization that the security guarantees are all one-way, of little value to us and supporting only illusions in Europe.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2009 12:03 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

NATO is increasingly becoming a diplomatic brueaucracy of ever decreasing revelance to real issues of security. The fact that the European members won't even allow the development of military planning for the defense of new members in Central Europe, from Poland to the Baltics illustrates both the dangerous illusions of the Western European powers and the increasing vacuity of the whole structure.


Well, I think, some member states of the NATO still look at the "Washington Treaty", like at Article 5 or Article 6 of the North Atlantic Treaty ...
0 Replies
 
 

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