55
   

THE BRITISH THREAD II

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:09 pm
@georgeob1,

Quote:
Would you have similarly objected to the Boer War, the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, the colonization and exploitation of continents?


Probably. But that's not what we're talking about here. And we're supposed to learn from history, learn from mistakes made by ourselvea and others. Let's bring this up to date, though.

Can any prime minister commit a greater crime than to deliberately mislead the House, and so take the country to war? I don't think he can.

It happened in your country too George, and I don't know why you and Mr Cool are so phlegmatic about it. It's not enough to say "**** happens".
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:42 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Would you have similarly objected to the Boer War, the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, the colonization and exploitation of continents?


Probably. But that's not what we're talking about here. And we're supposed to learn from history, learn from mistakes made by ourselvea and others.


It's very easy to judge anything from the past with today's knowledge, today's morals, today's laws, today's attitudes, today's belief etc.

That's exactly why many things can't -hopefully- happen today again.
That's why so many say this that nation and/or culture is "medieval".

It would be interesting to know what future generations in 100, 200 years think about what is now 'normality' for us ...
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:44 pm
@McTag,
In life, particularly in political aspects of it, we must deal with real choices between available alternatives, not ideal ones. Moreover we must do so with imperfect knowledge. Finally, the governing aspects of such events are very often not those so easily cited by contemporary and after the fact critics.

The WMD issue is an excellent example. Our "European allies" made it clear that the Security Council would consider no other argument. We knew that Saddam once had a uranium enrichment effort going, but that it had very likely been destroyed during or after the Gulf War with at most a few isolated elements left and hidden away. He did however have the ability to create toxic gas & other like warheads and the means to deliver them. These were obviously not the reasons that motivated the Bush Administration to intervene, but they were politically useful, if somewhat duplicitous arguments. Blair was caught between the desires (and illusions) of the continental European nations for a peaceful senescence (before the flood to the south engulfs them) . They and his domestic political foes insisted on a Security Council resolution to make it "legal". America insisted on action. Those were Blair's choices.

This is not a simple issue in which virtue was all on one side and "immorality" on the other.

Another contemporary and parallel aspect of the Scottish Enlightenment (tho not part of it) is a curious rather vindictive Calvinism. Ian Paisley comes to mind. Not very attractive to me.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

It's very easy to judge anything from the past with today's knowledge, today's morals, today's laws, today's attitudes, today's belief etc.

That's exactly why many things can't -hopefully- happen today again.
That's why so many say this that nation and/or culture is "medieval".

It would be interesting to know what future generations in 100, 200 years think about what is now 'normality' for us ...


I think the wise among them will conclude that very little has changed.

Think of your classical history Walter. Thucydidies' Peloponnesian War is just as meaningful today as it was in 395BC.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:57 pm
George wrote:
This is not a simple issue in which virtue was all on one side and "immorality" on the other.
There's a third party: oil.

Which, as everybody knows, is amoral..
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 01:22 pm
@Francis,
Doesn't wash Francis. We didn't take the oil.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 01:46 pm
@georgeob1,
You take the oil, George. You pay for it too. Bargain prices..

And you'll continue to have access to that oil...

However, I've no problem with that..
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:35 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The WMD issue is an excellent example. Our "European allies" made it clear that the Security Council would consider no other argument. We knew that Saddam once had a uranium enrichment effort going, but that it had very likely been destroyed during or after the Gulf War with at most a few isolated elements left and hidden away. He did however have the ability to create toxic gas & other like warheads and the means to deliver them. These were obviously not the reasons that motivated the Bush Administration to intervene, but they were politically useful, if somewhat duplicitous arguments. Blair was caught between the desires (and illusions) of the continental European nations for a peaceful senescence (before the flood to the south engulfs them) . They and his domestic political foes insisted on a Security Council resolution to make it "legal". America insisted on action. Those were Blair's choices.


Whatever Blair's persuasion by these arguments and circumstances might have been, my point is a narrower one: can a prime minister make up his mind on an issue which at odds with the opinion of his peers, then decide to bring evidence to support his desired course of action which he knows to be false?

He got his vote, Mr Bush got his "coalition" and his invasion. But it was based on lies and misrepresentation of the facts.

I hope it's not overly calvinistic of me to expect better, to say the least, from my elected representatives.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:46 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:

I hope it's not overly calvinistic of me to expect better, to say the least, from my elected representatives.


No argument there. However, I believe the lies and misrepresentations were well understood by nearly all of the MPs in the Parliament that approved his actions and by informed people in the public generally.

Singling out the leader for punishment in such a case is indeed a bit Ian Paisleyish.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:51 pm
@georgeob1,

Well I'm not so sure about that. When Blair said "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction which he can deploy against us in 45 minutes", what were the MP supposed to think? Could they even believe he would ever lie about something like that? Something as important as that?

But he did. May he soon join Ian Paisley in a protestant hell.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:56 pm
@McTag,
If you have been on a demo Mac you will be fixated. There's no shifting you.

I might suggest you read a few Prime Ministerial autobiographies where you will find that a PM can't go it alone. There's cabinet responsibility you know.

The situation in not quite infinitely more complex than what you understand of it but as near as dammit.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 04:01 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


But he did. May he soon join Ian Paisley in a protestant hell.


I wouldn't wish hell (of any sort) even on Ian Paisley (living in his skin must be bad enough).
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 04:59 pm
@Francis,
Francis wrote:
You take the oil, George. You pay for it too. Bargain prices..

Bargain prices? Where?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 06:31 pm
@Ticomaya,
Oh--it is cheap Tico. How did you get what you've got if it isn't?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 07:17 pm
President Roosevelt won his election in 1940 with a often repeated public pledge that he would keep us out of yet another European war. History reveals that he was at the time already corresponding with PM Churchill about getting us into it. The fact was that the U.S. had begun rather serious rearmament in 1937 and by 1940 was already providing arms & ships to Britain; building bases in British territory in Bermuda, Newfoundland and Trinidad; providing Naval escort to convoys and trying (usually without success) to sink German submarines.

Roosevelt's public assurances were clearly a lie, and a lie that was well understood by many in government and the public. In short this was an entirely analogous situation to that with respect to PM Blair.

I doubt that you would wish that Roosevelt were prosecuted for the lie. I suspect it is the war, not the lie, to which you object.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 11:05 am
@georgeob1,

By jove George, that is a very clever (and obvious) and perplexing analogy.

I suppose the main difference is that if Rooseveld had not so acted, the UK would have been smashed to bits or starved into submission.

Instead this time, we teamed up with the USA to smash Iraq to bits, after having starved it with sanctions. Iraq's misfortune to have a tyrannical demagogue in power, who would rather sacrifice his people than yield.
But it was sold to us on a lie- let us say, instead of Rooseveld's white lie, something much darker altogether.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 04:17 pm
@McTag,
I agree Mac that the Roosevelt thing was somewhat obtuse but I hardly think it, whatever it was, lacked anything in the dark arts department. I read that his general policy was to keep everybody in the dark.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 04:33 pm
@McTag,
Lies of various types are central to politics, including that in democratic systems. What makes the difference between a "white" and forgivable on and a darker one which, as you suggest in the case of former PM Blair, requires public retribution? Is it the intentions of the liar? or the purpose for which the lie was told? or the contemporary judgement of its effects? (The subsequent judgement of history may well be different.)

I can readily believe that Blair had a range of good intentions in acting as he did. While the outcome of the war had substantial human cost, Iraqis are far better off now than under the now departed tyrant. Tyrants can last a long time and do enormous harm. Does the British Empire/Commonwealth bear any responsibility for tyrants such as Idi Amin or Robert Mugabwe? Was their long term restraint in leaving these tyrants in power entirely virtuous? The boundaries of Iraq, indeed its modern creation, were likewise the work of the British Empire.

Even under the somewhat more Calvinistic PM Brown, Britain steers a course between continental Europe and America; something I believe Blair was trying to do and which may have influenced the outcome. Has PM Brown told any lies?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 04:35 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I agree Mac that the Roosevelt thing was somewhat obtuse but I hardly think it, whatever it was, lacked anything in the dark arts department. I read that his general policy was to keep everybody in the dark.


That's generally true, even in his domestic politics.

Wasn't it Churchill who said that in matters of state the truth is a precious commodity that must be guarded by a body of lies?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 05:16 pm
@georgeob1,
Churchill also said

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.
 

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