Transition from TEFL principles to reality of high school

As this is turnign out to give an impression like I am a complete mess of a teacher sexually harrassing my students, I would like to add some simple facts. I am currently teaching 5 classes of teenagers, one class has about 15 students. Out of these 5 classes, one class has 4 drama queens, the rest of the students seem to be annoyed by them and want me to keep them under control. ONe class has one drama queen and one drama king. Two classes are totally normal. I suppressed some initial tendencies to play games at the beginning. So I would like to say that most of my teaching is teaching English , being friendly and fun and getting adequate response from students.

So we are talking about a few drama queens who would like to cause a scandal or something, and I am somehow responsible. I'm working on it and your replies help a lot.

As for my trying to be their friend, I am happy with the situation when a class is in a nice, friendly atmosphere and we can work peacefully and respecfully.
That is enough. When I observed these students at a party, I notice I could have been something like a peer a decade ago, when I shared most of their attitudes, hobbies, likes and dislikes etc. But I have changed. I don't know their music, and don't care about it, I don't care about their clothes, I don't like snowboarding and I don't belive in changing partners every month. THere are some types who could become my friends maybe sometime later, if something deep connects us, but I don't think it is something happening. Most of them really respect me and are interested in whatever I have to tell them, about life, love, philosophy or other things, but friendship is based on a lot of common experience, which I just can't find with them. SO I think this is my attempt to realistically evaluate
how much friendship there could be between me and them.

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stach wrote:

I absolutely agree with you that it may be very annoying for a teenage girl to hear comments about her attractiveness from a male teacher. I am fortish and guess I can sense when a woman is pleased when I say something positive about her physical presence. When they hate it, they give you (us men, you women give us men) an awful, horrible look, like go to hell, you idiot. When, on the opposite, love it, they give you a look like they have been rocketed into paradise. I can see the difference.

Nope. Sorry.

When it happened to me, I smiled and giggled and responded positively because I thought I was supposed to. It's a compliment, right? But at the same time, I felt absolutely horrible about it, and I hated going to that teacher's class from then on. I'm wearing something kind of low-cut today -- will he think I'm showing off for him? Etc., etc. I was terribly uncomfortable, but didn't show it in any particular way. I thought it was immature to let it get to me, and was trying to be mature. (In fact it was immature for me to deny that it bothered me, and would have been more mature for me to have addressed it somehow. But I was a kid, I was immature. I'll come back to this point later.)

Do not depend on "looks." They won't give you accurate information, for one, and for another, even if a student DOES like being called sexy, it is highly unlikely that anything good will come of that while it's very possible that something bad will.

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The drama queens, as you revealed them, are those who are trying to get some special attention so I am sure they are not bothered by getting lolipops or remarks of their looks. They love it.

Well, no. That's not what I was saying at all. It's more a subconscious thing. A 3-year-old who is being neglected doesn't ENJOY being yelled at or punished, doesn't want to make it happen because he loves it. It's just that people (especially kids, but adults too) will get attention in whatever way works. You're creating dysfunction in your classroom by giving extra attention to those who act out. Again, you need to be consistent.

I'm not at all impressed by the motivations you're ascribing to these girls. They're still just kids, you need to think of them as such.

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I also agree that students should not be graded or praised according to their looks. IT is my principle, absolutely. Only when a girl - because my boys don't play these games or almost never - starts to cry feeling down / I wanted to say whatever positive - but now I understand it may be a parent's job to say to a girl You re beautiful, but not a teacher's job. I missed this point totally.

Right. Glad you see this now.

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I dare to say there might be an exception to this rule. THere is a student, who tried to commit suicide, I haven't taught her, only saw her in the school a few times, I think even a teacher may break a rule, when someone's life is in danger. Just a thought.

I'm sorry that this girl was suicidal. I remain unconvinced that a 40-year-old teacher telling her she's beautiful would help the situation (as opposed to making it even worse).

As in, if there is a rule against swimming in the school pool but there is a student drowning and you jump in to save her, sure, you've broken the rule but you had a good reason. I think it is impossible for you to know whether telling this student that she's beautiful would have helped her. While I don't know any details about the situation, I really doubt it.

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Stach- Just wanted to drop in to say, I don't think I'm the one to help you. If my daughter had a teacher who was writing her notes and commenting on her physical appearance, I'd have her removed from his class, and I'd report him.
If I was teaching with someone and I knew they were approaching teen-aged girls in such a way, I'd have a word with him privately, and if it continued, I'd report him to the principal or headmaster.
Bottom line-period.
This is a joke, right? If it's not, I understand your hesitancy in revealing who you are or where you teach because you know you've behaved inappropriately.
I have no words of advice to give you except that if you're forty and looking at teen-aged girls, you need to get help and remove yourself from what appears to be an inappropriate temptation to you-ie- find another profession.
I don't really care about whether you protect yourself or not-those girls need to be protected- they don't go to school to be ogled by middle-aged men.

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farmerman wrote:

I feel that the very word "sexy" to describe someone much younger and inexperienced than you, is a manipulative term and (excuse me for being cynical) not done with the best intentions.

I think you need to review your entire vocabulary you consider some of your words merely complementary( I, on the other hand , consider them semi-predatory). As a teacher of English, Im giving you all due reverence that you know exactly the definitions of the words that you use.

ONe wise man said: It is not important what we do but WHY we do it.
So my intentions may only be speculated and as most people have bad intentions when it comes to sex, it is basically agreed that saying the word "sexy" to a much younger student, is done with bad intention. Anyway, no matter how probable that is, it is only a speculation.

If we were trying to save me and help me no matter how others were hurt, it would be selfish. That is what most lawyers do / they don't care what is right and what is wrong, but play skillful games with words so they win the case. I don't want to be defended or attacked. I just want to observe the situation neutrally. I may be a harmless predator or a harmful predator. I may be a skillful manipulator with others. But I am afraid I am am just stupid. I guess we are trying to save me from a trouble, not the girl who was called sexy by me. If she wanted to, she could cause a big trouble to me having fun or feeling good or whatever. I could be accused of harrassment, abuse and who knows what other hellish deeds. Thank God I am not in the US. No matter how much I love some Americans and how many great friends I have found in the US.

So I suggest that the best thing is to look at this case with a neutral look, because trying to judge is tricky and is probably not why started the post.

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Really matters not which country youre in, my comment stands as my observation. Use it as you will(or wont). Kids are fragile , and by being so, they can lash out quickly and without thinking. Never give em reasons to lash out at you so that your credibility is compromised. Being a teacher is mostly a bluff, teaching in high school even more so I think. I have control of my students potential careers, you have only that subject for a time.

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Actually, I'm assuming you're shall we say naive. That's why I'm giving you advice instead of just denouncing you.

Of COURSE it's important what we do. Another wise man said, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Even if you're doing something for the best possible reasons, you have to look at what the actual consequences are.

Imagine a family is starving because there is not enough food to go around in a given village. So you kill all of the rest of the villagers. "I did it for a good reason -- this family will not starve now!," you say. Do you think that's a good excuse?

Obviously, the stakes are not nearly so high here, but you can't hide behind the fact that your intentions are good, even if that's the case.

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So what it all comes down to, seems quite simple and clear:

Don't comment on your student's looks.

Don't give them special attention. I suppose I have to give a special attention to a student who is giving their presentation. So it is meant like when it seems someone aggressively seeks attention for no reason, deny it or ignore it. Because he or she is not the only one and the others also need attention.

Don't say the word sexy and don't look at your teenage students or someone's going to have a word with you or have a student remove from your class.

I think this point is a matter of ethics and there are millions of opinions and I cannot pick one right. We all know rules like Dont kill, dont lie, dont steal ... but there is no general agreement on what is right and wrong when it comes to what one person is allowed to say to another person and I don't even thing in our country that there is a law in our country that would consider a teacher saying the word "sexy" to a student illegal. THe law in our country says the teacher must not have a sexual physical contact but there is no comment on words. So to judge my morals, I guess it is really tricky. To judge me as a professional, easy, I am stupid.

In the past I got away with a lot of foolishness. But that was my youth, a period of my life when I loved to experiment and rock the boat. When I got this job, I was happy. I didn't want to mess up. So I clearly and firmly decided to not touch the students sexually. I stick to this rule, no problem, I just didn't know using words would still be a problem. We are living in a word civilization and sometimes people go crazy about words, but that is reality and I have to respect it.

Maybe some of you think I am crazy but I grew up in school environment where it was almost socially acceptable that a high school teacher goes out with his teenage student. For example, a neighor had a girlfriend who was his student and I remember I was like 10 and my mom told me and looked like: That is not common, but whatever. Then another family in the neighborhood was started like this - the father started to go out with the mother when she was his high school teacher. So she was 4 years older and they turned out to be a nice family, with one son and he now has children and everytyhing seems ok. When I was in high school myself, one of our teachers started to make out with my fellow students. They had some sexual contact but that was it. I remember our class just made jokes and nobody took that teacher very seriosly. I think we would be jealous if he was really successful with the girls but he basically wasn't. THen when I started to teach at high school, it turned out one of my fellow teachers slept with her student. I don't know how many people at school knew it but she got away with it ans still teaches there.

So maybe the atmosphere in our schools is a little bit more tolerant to such unusual encounters, and that explains why I feel almost proud that I have decided to be "clean". I feel like a moral person with principles. half jokingly so.

But I can see someone could try to pull me into a trouble. THese girls could. ANd then the headmaster would ask me questions and I would say: I was just being stupid and naive. I think he would agree and let me learn from my mistakes and continue doing my job.

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I dunno, I think America is overly litigious and that a lot of the rules are stupid but I think the rules preventing sexual contact between high school students and their teachers are good rules.

The stuff you're talking about -- a teacher making out with his students, apparently with witnesses -- wow. Shocked

Also

that you could just say that you were being stupid and naive to a headmaster and he'd excuse you. I can't know for sure if that's accurate or not of course, but I don't think I'd want to be a student at your school.

Meanwhile, we're not saying that the word "sexy" is illegal. We're saying that using the word in reference to your students is very likely to cause problems -- problems like the ones you've already described.

Special attention can be very good, just give it for appropriate reasons. Academic performance, especially. Reward, with attention, behavior that is GOOD for your classroom. (Being helpful, giving a good presentation, listening well, etc.) That attention should be in terms of eye contact, focused praise, constructive criticism, that kind of thing. NOT comments on the student's looks, correct.

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sozobe wrote:

I dunno, I think America is overly litigious and that a lot of the rules are stupid but I think the rules preventing sexual contact between high school students and their teachers are good rules.

The stuff you're talking about -- a teacher making out with his students, apparently with witnesses -- wow.

Also that you could just say that you were being stupid and naive to a headmaster and he'd excuse you. I can't know for sure if that's accurate or not of course, but I don't think I'd want to be a student at your school.

Meanwhile, we're not saying that the word "sexy" is illegal. We're saying that using the word in reference to your students is very likely to cause problems -- problems like the ones you've already described.

Special attention can be very good, just give it for appropriate reasons. Academic performance, especially. Reward, with attention, behavior that is GOOD for your classroom. (Being helpful, giving a good presentation, listening well, etc.) That attention should be in terms of eye contact, focused praise, constructive criticism, that kind of thing. NOT comments on the student's looks, correct.

I think the headmaster - now I am trying to be realistic, not boast - only gets positive information about me, most students find me a graet teacher and person - I know they see something they only imagine, but that's just a fact - so most people react according to impressions, you, other readers, students, colleagues, and some people tend to like you and some don't - so this headmaster would be in a very strange position to deal with - he has only heard positive about me and he is doing his best to keep me at the school, giving me extra money, benefits, etc becuse in general it is difficult to get decent teachers at high school as the pay is ridiculous. SO he would not approve of me telling teenage girls how attractive they are but I guess he would be interested if I had had sexual contact with them. IF not, he would tell me to stop using those personal comments. I feel, as a person, he would still trust me if he would feel in my reactions to him authenticity and integrity. He is really, really conservative. But he would also trust his intuition and common sense.

When it comes to liking to be at our school, our studens get to the most prestgious universtities in the world, so we have good results, some of our ex students sutdy at Harvard, Cambridge etc. The whiners trying to ruin me don't get anywhere of course. BUt I still like them, I never wanted to cause trouble to them but I might have to do it if they dont' treat me fairly.

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Anyway, thanks everyone for their input, I thought some of them would be very critical and label me as a scandalous person who should be avoided so it is natural that someone like that turns up.

So I really appreciate the realistic feedback from Sozobe and hope she will help me with more specific questions regarding praise, evaluation in class etc some time in the future.

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stach

Quote:

So what it all comes down to, seems quite simple and clear:

Don't comment on your student's looks.

Don't give them special attention. I suppose I have to give a special attention to a student who is giving their presentation

Now that is not what I said and neither have others. Your debate skills are kind of on the naive side. You dont have to reach for an extreme comparative option. There is a medium point of propriety and acceptable language. Youve gone from an extreme of calling a student "sexy" to a toned-down version where you now eschew "commenting on a students appearance" . Theres a galaxy of difference between the two statements. SO, if youre just having some fun with language, at our expense so be it. However, Id still stay away from the "sexy' com ments its just inappropriate. (I have an ethics committee that reports to the faculty and we are presented such points by our University legal department.

I think its quite appropriate to comment on a students capabilities and use some form of "stroking" to get their best work (however I try to stay away from the physical appointments of students), they can be leading and , in most of the civilized world, it can get you into a caulron of hot water. Also, commenting on their work and highlighting that which is excellent is always a plus. Even some of the students who arent the brightest should be complemented where some idea or point in their work may be creative or a new way of looking at the problem at hand.

Apparently, from your posts, you dont benefit from performance reviews, merit increases or collective bargaining

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farmerman wrote:

stach
Quote:
So what it all comes down to, seems quite simple and clear:

Don't comment on your student's looks.

Don't give them special attention. I suppose I have to give a special attention to a student who is giving their presentation

Now that is not what I said and neither have others. Your debate skills are kind of on the naive side. You dont have to reach for an extreme comparative option. There is a medium point of propriety and acceptable language. Youve gone from an extreme of calling a student "sexy" to a toned-down version where you now eschew "commenting on a students appearance" . Theres a galaxy of difference between the two statements. SO, if youre just having some fun with language, at our expense so be it. However, Id still stay away from the "sexy' com ments its just inappropriate. (I have an ethics committee that reports to the faculty and we are presented such points by our University legal department.

I think its quite appropriate to comment on a students capabilities and use some form of "stroking" to get their best work (however I try to stay away from the physical appointments of students), they can be leading and , in most of the civilized world, it can get you into a caulron of hot water. Also, commenting on their work and highlighting that which is excellent is always a plus. Even some of the students who arent the brightest should be complemented where some idea or point in their work may be creative or a new way of looking at the problem at hand.

Apparently, from your posts, you dont benefit from performance reviews, merit increases or collective bargaining

Farmerman, don't forget I don't have American or British or some other highly sophisticated academic background wehere debating about words forever without any connection to reality is so popular, I do know quite a lot of these intellectuals personally and experienced such debates - but I am not in this group of people and mostly don't undestand what they are talking about - so if you don't speak practically and realistically to me, I don't understand. Even for my country intellectual standards, I am not an intellectual. Those intellectuals give me goosebumps. I am not playing
with words at anyone's expense. I think I did my best to describe what happened to me. I don't even remember if I called a girl "sexy" or "attractive" or "you look good" as I had no clue that the word would be so important to somebody in the future. I try to remember important things and forget what I don't consider important. Now that these four girls started to complain and mention gossip, I am trying to remember. But all it comes to some speculation about my intentions. So I am interested in psychological aspects of the whole thing and how it affects all students behavior and my relations with my students and possibly with my colleagues and bosses. I think we have already covered that fully.

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Transition from TEFL principles to reality of high school

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