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budgetwater.com <-- Does anyone have experience info?

 
 
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 12:04 pm
Howdy All,

Great Community here!

I've been interested in water softener, conditioner and RO system for my home since we built (5 yrs ago).

We are on city water, and have a visible manganese problem along with hardness (7 i think).

We had a Rainsoft rep (the local owner actually) come by and tested the water and give his sales pitch.

We quoted us the EC4 unit for $2200, originally $3400.

I then started my water research in ernest.

I came across budgetwater.com and had an very long/interesting online chat with one of their reps. He seems quite knowledgeable and didn't knock the Rainsoft product, but he didn't care for their sales techniques.

From my research and conversations (with Rainsoft and Budgetwater), I have come up with some questions and was hoping that those with experience could help guide me.

1) Does anyone have an experience or information regarding Budget Water and there products?

2) Is a twin tank unit the 'best' for residential use? (We have four in our family)

3) Timer versus Demand systems. If salt is inexpensive, is there any other advantages/disadvantages of timer vs demand?

4) How often do RO filters need to be changed, and what is the average cost?

5) Will a water conditioner (activated charcoal, I believe) remove manganese?

6) What is the useable lifetime of the resin in a softener?

7) Is counter-current regeneration the same as backflushing, and how important a feature is this?

8) Recommendations on units.

Thanks to all,
Brian
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H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 12:55 pm
Re: budgetwater.com <-- Does anyone have experience info?
Wolfmanx wrote:


1) Does anyone have an experience or information regarding Budget Water and there products?
2) Is a twin tank unit the 'best' for residential use? (We have four in our family)
3) Timer versus Demand systems. If salt is inexpensive, is there any other advantages/disadvantages of timer vs demand?
4) How often do RO filters need to be changed, and what is the average cost?
5) Will a water conditioner (activated charcoal, I believe) remove manganese?
6) What is the useable lifetime of the resin in a softener?
7) Is counter-current regeneration the same as backflushing, and how important a feature is this?
8) Recommendations on units.


1 - 19 years in the H2O industry and I have never come across this company.

2 - Twin tanks are a waste of money 99.9% of the time.

3 - Hybrid metered systems are by far the best and most efficient.

4 - It depends, yearly on the pre and post and ever 36 months on the membrane.

5 - Carbon will not remove manganese, resin will.

6 - It depends, resin can last indefinitely.

7 - "Counter-Current" sounds like a slick marketing way to say backwash.

8 - My recommendations:

ECOWATER ERR 3500 WATER REFINER
This is a super efficient computerized softener with carbon.

ECOWATER ERO R450E DRINKING WATER SYSTEM
Electric monitor indicates when filters need to be changed.

Contact ECOWATER to find a dealer in your area.
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 01:55 pm
Thanks H20
Thank you for the respond H20_Man.

I greatly appreciate you time.

1) They said they are based out of Pittsburgh, PA. They state that they use Autotrol and Fleck components.

2) So is it just marketing hype in regard to the twin tank units using soft water to perform the regeneration cycle?

3) I'm am unfamiliar with a 'Hybrid metered' system, could you point me to some reading materials?

8) What is the typical pricing (w/o install) on your recommendation? Is there documentation I could review on these units?


Thanks again,
Brian
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 02:40 pm
Re: Thanks H20
Wolfmanx wrote:
Thank you for the respond H20_Man.

I greatly appreciate you time.

1) They said they are based out of Pittsburgh, PA. They state that they use Autotrol and Fleck components.
2) So is it just marketing hype in regard to the twin tank units using soft water to perform the regeneration cycle?
3) I'm am unfamiliar with a 'Hybrid metered' system, could you point me to some reading materials?
8) What is the typical pricing (w/o install) on your recommendation? Is there documentation I could review on these units?


No problem Brian,

1 - I do like FLECK control valves, but I'm not fond of Autotrol.

2 - High volume commercial application that require 24/7, non-stop treated water can sometimes use multi-tank systems.
Even large households do not require this type of system.

3 - The computer program on the new ECOWATER systems learn your water usage habits and adjust accordingly. Highly efficient.

8 - Every location is different. Contact your local ECO dealer for a quote.
To avoid questions and warranty problems I strongly suggest you let the dealer install the system.

What part of the country do you live in?
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 03:17 pm
Wisconsin
I'm in Wisconsin.

I ran the locater you linked to and I have the contact info for the local dealer.

So backflushing with soft water isn't an important feature to look for?

Thanks again.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 04:50 pm
Re: Wisconsin
Wolfmanx wrote:
I'm in Wisconsin.

I ran the locater you linked to and I have the contact info for the local dealer.

So backflushing with soft water isn't an important feature to look for?

Thanks again.


Back washing no - brine make up - yes.

This new ERR 3500 is light years ahead of the others, so much so that I am buying one for my house.
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 05:51 pm
Excellent
Thanks H20_Man!

I will look into it.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 06:51 pm
Another satisied H2O man customer rides happily off into the sunset Smile
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Feb, 2007 10:44 am
cost
H20_MAN,

I called the local dealer and he quoted me $2995.00 installed for your recommended solution.

Does this sound inline?

It's is out of my price range, so I'm going to do more research and hopefully find a more economical solutions.

Thanks again.
Brian
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Feb, 2007 02:18 pm
Re: cost
Wolfmanx wrote:
H20_MAN,

I called the local dealer and he quoted me $2995.00 installed for your recommended solution.



It's the same price here.

If it does not fit your budget search for a plumbing distributor that sells NORTHSTAR.
ECOWATER makes these.
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Feb, 2007 09:16 pm
thanks
H2O_MAN,

What is it about these systems that you recommend them?

I only ask because I'm trying to educate myself.

Is there a differenece between xeolite and resin systems?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Feb, 2007 10:31 pm
What is it about these systems that you recommend them?
ECOWATER is the only company that makes just about everything needed to build the complete system in-house.
They have an awesome in-house R&D department that is constantly looking to take it to the next level.
Quality control is excellent. Factory/dealer/customer relations are excellent.
I have been in this industry for almost 20 years and I have not seen anything better.
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 08:44 am
Thanks again H2O_MAN, you are a wealth of knowledge.

I'm a simpleton, I've read through many posts here and articles elsewhere on the web.

Could you dumb it down a bit for me and show me what the 'basic' of water softener are.

1) What components in the system are crucial and/or wear our?

2) My understand -> ALL water softeners (salt based anyway) will softener water?

3) Efficiency as it relates to softeners.

4) What is a GAC? (I think Activated Charcoal) and is it necessary for a whole home water treatment system?

5) Is there any difference in RO Systems out there for drinking water? I came across the Merlin by GE, it's tankless.

Thank you again!
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 08:45 am
Wolfmanx,

As for the differences between timer and demand operated systems, there should be no choice. Timers are very inefficient and waste salt or permit untreated water to enter service; two aspects that should not be included in an excellent design, feature and function of water treatment equipment.

Companies that tout timers as a valuable choice are hoping the consumer is unaware it the shortcomings and see it as a 'less expensive' selection to treat their water, are not really doing the consumer much justice.

It is important to have treated brine solution so as to clean the resins effectively and to avoid service calls due to the brine tank accumulating sludge and well water residue.

I also believe there is much advantage in slow rinsing, brining, backwashing and fast rinsing with soft, clear, iron-free water. It doesn't make much sense to me to clean the resins with the vary elements that the system is meant to remove.

This makes the resin-life last much longer (sometimes decades) and doesn't partially exhaust the resin even before service begins leading to hardness leakage. These systems are probably more expensive initially but reduce costs in the long run.

I am afraid I will have to agree to disagree with H2O Man on his 99.9% value. There are many advantages by having a twin tank system especially if your water use is variable. Of course no one uses water 24 hours a day, but regeneration occurs when it needs to and only when it needs to not at 2:00am regardless of its exhaustion value. It is consistent and constant in operation.

There are many high quality single tank systems and some rather dubious types. If you decide to go that route make sure you do your research. Some people will even select a particular resin, say high capacity versus fine mesh, to match with their equipment for further improvement in water treatment design.

Andy Christensen CWS
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 09:32 am
Wolfmanx wrote:
Thanks again H2O_MAN, you are a wealth of knowledge.
I'm a simpleton, I've read through many posts here and articles elsewhere on the web.
Could you dumb it down a bit for me and show me what the 'basic' of water softener are.

1) What components in the system are crucial and/or wear our?
2) My understand -> ALL water softeners (salt based anyway) will softener water?
3) Efficiency as it relates to softeners.
4) What is a GAC? (I think Activated Charcoal) and is it necessary for a whole home water treatment system?
5) Is there any difference in RO Systems out there for drinking water? I came across the Merlin by GE, it's tankless.

Thank you again!


1 - The control valve and resin are crucial to any softener.
2 - All softeners require some type of salt for the exchange of ions.
3 - Granulated Activated Carbon is possibly the best thing you can run water through.
4 - RO performance is dependant on many factors such as temperature and pressure.
An RO can do a good job, but I prefer distillation with solid carbon block post filtration.
5 - This type of RO is just now hitting the residential market. I do like the concept, but still prefer distillation.

HTH ~
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 12:58 pm
Andy, thank you very much for your input.

H2O_MAN, thanks again.

So that I'm clear, The valve and the resin are most important, correct?

I haven't read about solid carbon block distillation versus RO, can you point me to reading materials on this?

I read one of your other posted regarding the Fleck 2510, is this only in reference to the valve itself? Can a manufacturer use the Fleck 2510 on a system with sub-par resin?

Bottom line:

I'm try to get a water treatment system that will work well for my family.
I am a value shopper, I will spend more (to a point) if it is proven to me that that course of action is the best value.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 01:05 pm
Wolfmanx wrote:
Andy, thank you very much for your input.

H2O_MAN, thanks again.

So that I'm clear, The valve and the resin are most important, correct?

I haven't read about solid carbon block distillation versus RO, can you point me to reading materials on this?

I read one of your other posted regarding the Fleck 2510, is this only in reference to the valve itself? Can a manufacturer use the Fleck 2510 on a system with sub-par resin?

Bottom line:

I'm try to get a water treatment system that will work well for my family.
I am a value shopper, I will spend more (to a point) if it is proven to me that that course of action is the best value.


Multi-Pure makes the best solid carbon block filters and WATERWISE (7000 series) is the better distiller company.

The Fleck 2510 SE is just a control valve. It can be installed on just about any softener resin tank made.
I have replaced many obsolete RainSoft control valves with the SE utilizing the original RainSoft tank and resin.
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 01:22 pm
How can one tell the quality of the resin used?

Do the GE units use sub-par resin and valves?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 02:53 pm
Wolfmanx wrote:
How can one tell the quality of the resin used?

Do the GE units use sub-par resin and valves?


The GE unit you linked to is a POU drinking water system.

As for quality resin - it really depends on application and the brand name like DOW and PUROLITE.
0 Replies
 
Wolfmanx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Feb, 2007 03:28 pm
Sorry for the confusion.

I realize that I had linked to and RO system, but was thinking something else in my head.

I thought I had read in other posts that most big box stores (Sears, Home Depot, etc.) units were rebadged GE units. My apologies for not being clear.

When you talk about 'the valve', is this the physical valve and the electronics that controll it?

When you talk about efficiency, what exactly does that mean? The amount of water it uses when regenerating and the amount of salt?
0 Replies
 
 

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