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Sun 18 Feb, 2007 06:32 pm
Sorry, I had to make a thread about it. It is my arguments for what I disagree with and they are rarely if ever answered convincingly. So Christians and non-christians reply if you'd like but this is why, I am no longer a christian.
DISCLAIMER: I am not bashing christianity though, i am an Agnostic, meaning I cant say if it is total truth or total crap, I just dont have enough information to convince me.
Here are my problems.
HELL: I do not believe in hell. Why? The bible says somewhere that this is a place for those who havent claimed Jesus as their lord and savior to burn and suffer for ever and ever with no escape. Hell is obviously bad when Jesus in the bible says a man would rather cut off his eyes and even hands to stay out. Their is crying and gnashing of teeth, demons, a lake of fire, and torture without the presence of our loving god.
contradiction: The bible says god is eternal love. God has so much love for us, that we cant even realize the depth of his love for all humans. BUT if we for some reason do not hear about Jesus, are not convinced Jesus is the son of god, or are seriously searching for slavation yet never come to Jesus *flush* you are going to hell forever. No excuses. No forgiveness. Gone.
JESUS: Ah so Jesus is the son of god right? How do I know this? I can only read about this man who lived over 2000 years ago. How do I know this story about him is true? The bible is such an old book that how do we know what the writters intentions were, or who they even were themselves? How do we know his miracles were real, or if he did walk on water. To me these are just stories from a really old book. How can I be positive that Jesus is my lord and savior when the only evidence about him is in a book written so long ago that it's origins are always disputed.
THE BIBLE: Although a convincing and intelligently written book, there are many inconsistencies and things that do not make sense. The bible says the earth is flat...Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Yeah not diggin that. It also says we have all stemmed from Adam and Eve. The entire population coming from two people is already scientically disprooven. Inbreeding would have had to been occuring over and over for more offspring, making a lot of mutations and inbreeding side effects.
Miracles? Wheres the miracles now days? Why isnt god turning people into salt and having giants and ridiculous anomalies running around?
Here are some layed out inconsistencies:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.
AC 5:29 Obey God, not men.
RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.
Ohhhhhh there is so much more. Only religions I am against are those that teach violence (muslims lol) and such, Christianity is a good one so I dont dispute believers, BUT I have something against blind faith.
My saying and wrap up of my 2 cents: How can I believe entirely in one religion when I havent even heard what the others (who many follow) have to say? How can I claim one to be right before hearing anothers argument?
THAT is called blind faith. Do not have blind faith.
Actually there are some pretty good scientific indications that all humans come from one family.
I would like to thank you for opening your eyes. Having blind faith is just as bad as being an aetheist; you are no better than a parrot if you simply accept your forefather's religion without questioning it.
Do you intend on finding the Truth?
Re: My problem with Chirstianity
Jeremiah wrote: It also says we have all stemmed from Adam and Eve. The entire population coming from two people is already scientically disprooven.
Are you an agnostic, or do you have proof;]?
I am interested to see a reference to this proof. How did humans evolve, if not from the same origin?
Yeah everything in that post is pretty much why I turned away from my Catholic faith and became merely a very confused believer in some sort of God... I'll be interested to see the answers that come up!
Christianity, in brief: a perfect God created perfect human beings (who must somehow have altered their own DNA), an omniscient God did not foresee that they would be tricked them into committing a sin before they even knew what sin was, a loving God declared all of their descendents to be inherently unacceptable to him and deserving of eternal torture no matter how hard we try to be good in this life, an omnipotent God was incapable of forgiving us until he created a human part of himself and had it sacrificed to himself in order to save us from himself, for which mercy we are obligated to be eternally grateful and obedient slaves to this omnibenevolent God.
If you can believe that, you can believe anything.
What the hell is chirstianity?
It's what aethiests don't believe in but Babtists do.
Raul 7
You wrote
Quote:you are no better than a parrot if you simply accept your forefather's religion without questioning it.
Perhaps you will tell us which parts of Islam you have questioned.
There wouldn't be much danger of inbreeding after just a few generations.
Rather quickly it would be 3rd and 4th cousins marrying, and to mix it up more, one person way on one branch of the family tree could marry an aunt or uncle several times removed from far on another branch.
Setanta wrote:What the hell is chirstianity?
What, you never heard of the Chirst?
Jezas Chirst?
Our Lard and Souvenir?
Raul-7 wrote:I would like to thank you for opening your eyes. Having blind faith is just as bad as being an aetheist; you are no better than a parrot if you simply accept your forefather's religion without questioning it.
Do you intend on finding the Truth?
And that from one of the most prolific parrots on this board.
mesquite
You've pre-empted some fun with Raul!
Quote:The bible says somewhere that this is a place for those who havent claimed Jesus as their lord and savior to burn and suffer for ever and ever with no escape.
Quote:JESUS: Ah so Jesus is the son of god right? How do I know this? I can only read about this man who lived over 2000 years ago.
You don't. That is why Christianity is based on faith.
Quote:The bible says the earth is flat...Isaiah 11:12
Anyone that says the bible is infallible is wrong. It is claimed to written by people as they were moved by God. Nothing in that speaks of infallibility.
Quote:It also says we have all stemmed from Adam and Eve. The entire population coming from two people is already scientically disprooven. Inbreeding would have had to been occuring over and over for more offspring, making a lot of mutations and inbreeding side effects
Are you saying that monkeys somehow all had the same mutations all at the same time, allowing them to breed as humans?
Quote:Miracles? Wheres the miracles now days? Why isnt god turning people into salt and having giants and ridiculous anomalies running around?
Maybe the anomalies all died off, but the miracles are somehow missing for sure. On a cynical note, the Catholic Church, which requires it's saints to perform a confirmed miracle before they can be confirmed a saint, is saying that there are many many more miracles today than in days gone bye (judging by the number of recent saints compare to the early church)
Nice anomalies, I hadn't seen some of them before. A note though on
Quote:GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
Nothing wrong with asking someone, even if you know the answer.
Quote:DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.
God is sometimes angry is an understatement. The old testament had him as someone to be feared. The new testament, not so.
vikorr wrote: God is sometimes angry is an understatement. The old testament had him as someone to be feared. The new testament, not so.
The New Testament shows him as an infinite monster.
The Old Testament had an angry God smoting here and there--arbitrarily--but upon their death this God's anger appeared slaked. At the very least momentarily appeased.
However, the New Testament introduces his New Deal, hell. Now upon the death of some poor clueless infidel, we learn the punishment has just begun. We are to believe the torture will now last forever. There are no bounds now for his raging anger.
When you say "the New Testament, not so" (for him to be feared), I wonder where you get that idea.
Hello Tycoon
Quote:However, the New Testament introduces his New Deal, hell. Now upon the death of some poor clueless infidel, we learn the punishment has just begun. We are to believe the torture will now last forever. There are no bounds now for his raging anger
When you say "the New Testament, not so" (for him to be feared), I wonder where you get that idea.
While I'm no longer religious as such, I've read the new testament pretty much back the front, and many years back made a study of what is hell (the bible hasn't changed since then). While many Christians believe in the version of hell you mention, there is nothing in the new testament that actually backs up what you are saying on hell.
Perhaps you would care to actually provide a quote to back up your claim? Or are you just regurgitating what you've heard from others?
vikorr wrote:Perhaps you would care to actually provide a quote to back up your claim? Or are you just regurgitating what you've heard from others?
Hey vikkorr, nice little putdown there. Am I to believe your "studies" of the NT led you to conclude all by yourself that there is no hell? This is all spoon-fed, apologetic, feel-good bilge that continually circulates in certain liberal strands of Christianity
ad naseum.
Words mean nothing to these types. It's all spin. If I were a Christian I suppose I might do the same thing--I'd do anything in fact to deny the dogma of hell; to seek out any and all excuses.
So when Jesus speaks in Mt 25 of the Last Judgment where he separates goats on the left and sheep on the right and then states to the poor goats, " Depart from me, accursed ones into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels", it's all metaphor, right?
Let's talk about the metaphor of heaven too. The metaphorical crucifixion as well.
Over the years, I've asked a number of Christians that believe in your version of hell where in the bible it gives said version of hell, and none have been able to back up their belief...they are always rather vague about it. It does seem silly to me that many Christians don't even know why they believe what they believe re hell.
The bible states flat out that the price of sin is death. Everlasting fire and smoke doesn't change that. And you can't be dead if you are alive for ever(lasting torment). So read your quote with this, and see what you come up with.
As far as intentions go, you misunderstand me, I am not Christian, but nor am I anti-Christian. I have no real interest in heaven or hell. The discussion of hell was brought up by yourself, and as it appears erroneous to me, I pointed this out.
edit : PS I've had a similar argument with Christian proponents of your version of hell, about how a God of Love can torture people forever. Or on a more basic note... how in the old testament, God sent a pack of bears to rip apart children who were calling the prophet Elijah 'old baldy'.
I'm pretty disappointed in your response.
No more when you say, "The Bible states flat out..."
The Bible states nothing flat out. It contradicts itself at every possible juncture it can. I would think that from your discloser that you have read the Bible carefully you would be aware of this.
fresco wrote:mesquite
You've pre-empted some fun with Raul!
Nah. Raul wasn't about to answer your question fresco. He has a habit of ducking the tough ones just like he did
here[/u].
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