supernatural force

An excellent distinction, Cryacuz: that between psychologically "spawned" "unrealities" and those resulting from physical optical processes, i.e., mirages. And then there are the theoretical constructions "imagined" inferentially from logical necessity. I'm thinking of my understanding of the origin of the atom, something that was not encountered empirically but "required" to explain what had been seen. Later it was confirmed by expanded technological means. But the theological construct of the "soul" is a different matter; it was, perhaps, also imagined inferentially from extant beliefs and experiences (such as dreams that needed explaining) but never confirmed empirically.

Yes, these are interesting considerations JL. It seems that one aspect of the human "power" is to create reality from imagination. This is no small feat by my estimations. One man's vision shook the world as he sought to transform it into reality, and millions died under his campaigns. In extermination camps and on the battlefields. There's no need to mention his name I should think. Others paved the way for horrors and wonders with the power of their imagination, creating theories and inventions that have shaped the world we live in.

So to a large extent, what is real and what is imagination is very much up to us. I think this is a very inspiring line of thought.

We tend to think--as an expression of "naive realism"--that the world we perceive is given, that it is, in its meaninful sense, the creation of God or Plato's Grand Architect, or some Great Spirit that is immanent within, and thereby giving its meaning to, all things.
What is more likely is that we have, as you acknowlege, constructed, and are continuously constructing, our world. As Schopenhauer affilrmed famously, The World is My Idea. This constructivism acknowleldges the creative role of human consciousness: we make our world, by ascribing meaning--under the guidance for the most part, but not absolutely, of our culture, or our enculturation and socialization.
Frankly, I take great pleasure in the realization that we humans, not some "interventionist God", have created and are creatilng our world. The frequently observed need (even among some philosophers) for an objective physical or absolutistic conceptual foundation for our undersstandings of the world is a bit infantile and dependent. If anything you and I ARE the foundations of our meaningful condition. We stand on nothing but ourselves, individually and collectively.

I guess the problem that many see is that humans weren't always around, and they feel that something or someone has to be responsible for our coming to be.
I think that notions like beginnings and endings are human concepts, relevant when we are "processing" perceptual input. A giveaway is that such terms are, as far as I can tell, always relative. There are no absolute definitions to them, same as with here and there, now and then and so on. Seems to me that when we're dealing with abstract absolutes (such as concepts of deity, grand architect, or just the world as a singuloarity) it becomes wrong to invoke relative terms in our application of logic.

Yes, it seems axiomatic to me that humans have not always been around, that we were preceded by a non-constructed world--an aspect of the "ground of our being." But what I refer to as our constructed reality, is the MEANINGFUL world in which we live. The "objective" world, i.e., that which is slowly being revealed--or formulated conceptually--by the new physics is beyond the "meaningful" world we experience in the world we construct, especially that reflecting our culturally mandated naive realism. But, at a much higher level of abstraction, even that mysterious world of quantum mechanics is constructed as the theoretical models of which it consists.

And we must acknowledge, even if it paralizes us when we do so, that ALL our thoughts--including ours in this discussion--are our creations, not absolute reflections of an objective world.

I understand. We have created our world of meaning, and it is within this world our questions arise. Questions such as "is there a god" and "what is the purpose" etc.. Strange that we have created a void and the need to fill it. I think this bears testament to the fact that our world is ever in the making, with plenty of room for us to re-invent ourselves as we see fit. Inspiring thought.

And yes, all our thoughts are our creations. If such an admission is paralyzing, then what are we before realizing it? Paralyzed, yet unaware of it perhaps...

Yes, Cryacuz, the fact that we define ourselves and our world IS INSPIRING. The "paralysis" I refer to is what happens when we experience a conflict between our tacit objectivism and the realization of our constructivism. I am neither an absolute objectivist nor an absolute idealist. There IS a world independent of our constructions, but that world is invisible and meaningless to us--until we define or interpret it (i.e., our constructivism). We render that world visible and meaningful. It is the INTERACTION (cf. Fresco) between our creative actions and that which we act upon that engenders our meaningful world. It is both liberating and inspiring to know that we are the architecs of our meaningful world. I can't understand why we wish to give credit for OUR creation to a Grand Creator that doesn't exist--except as our conceptual creation.

JL
Thinking about it in this way drastically alters many things.

For instance, a close friend of mine often complains that she finds everything to be so meaningless. She operates pretty much within the bounds of naive realism. Concepts are, to her, absolutes that she struggles with to understand their meaningful places in the world, and when she fails she becomes miserable.

We've had many debates over many issues, most frequently over the issue of "self". She sees the self as a fixed value, something that belongs entirely to her. I've tried to get her to realize that her mental ailments, such as depressions, angst and sometimes almost schitzophrenia, are results of this belief that she is a separate entity. I've tried to explain that she is not finding meaning or meaninglessness, but creating it. Her response is usually anger, but lately she's begun to think in new ways on her own, and understands my viewpoints better.

I am telling you all this because it has helped me understand the answer to the question you pose at the end of your post.

You wrote:
"I can't understand why we wish to give credit for OUR creation to a Grand Creator that doesn't exist--except as our conceptual creation."

As I see it, it is because we are afraid of our own potential. If we are the creators, then we are also responsible when something is not right, and for my friend to assume responsibility for her suffering was not something she was prepared to do.

But she's made great progress lately, and she's begun to think in new ways, abandoning her naive realism more and more, to her great benefit.

That is to me confirmation of the truth of these things. That realizing them can make life better for the individual.

regarding your friend, I am confident that how she defines her world has an impact on her conscious attitude toward her life. Meditation also has positive benefits at the level of her unconscious mental posture. But has seen considered the chemical status of her brain activities, i.e., cortisol levels and the operations of hormones and seratonin?

Yes, these things have been examined, and there were minor abnormalities. But no more than could be fixed by a good diet and a healty sleep cycle.

So there was no way of knowing if the abnormalities were the cause for her conscious experience, or just an effect of it.
Personally I think that that is the case with many psychological conditions. A kind of chicken and egg problematique...

Yes, indeed.
By the way, have you heard that some, if not many, people feel anxiety attacks because of the way they breathe? They hyperventilate, that is to say they acquire too much oxygen in the brain resulting in the illusion that they have a shortage of oxygen. The reality is that they have too much oxygen and not enough carbon dioxide. In consequence they breathe faster (and more shallower) exacerbating their problem. Slow deep breathing, sometimes into a bag to capture and re-inhale their exhaled carbon dioxide, can restore their oxygen-carbon dioxide balance and eliminate their anxiety.
I read somewhere that crisis therapists often get such cases.

Yes, I have heard of that. This shallow breathing can often be triggered by thoughts and anticipations of something not welcome in our life. A good example of how psychological imbalances can result in physical problems.

I just finished watching star wars 1 again. In one scene a jedi knight says "Remember that your focus determines your reality." I do not know, but it seems to me that the ideas for the "jedi" and "the force" come from oriental philosophies.

I think so. The oriental slant if, of course, no more than a slant chosen for its exotic/mysterious flavor.

I think so too. In any case, star wars is fun to watch. I wouldn't base a life philosophy on it though. The wisdom we see in it we find because it reverberates with what is within us. Come to think, I believe that's the case with all films and books. Even such books as the bible. Perhaps particularly such books as the bible.

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Yea.. That one is good too.

Also, all the times they are reminded to be mindful of their thoughts and feelings, or else they be betrayed by them.
There's something to it, I think.
Unless we are mindful of our thoughts and feelings they can easily bring us to "places" where we our reality becomes miserable.


Wow... It's just dawning on me... I think I am transforming into a nerd