Consciousness is a social experience

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Consciousness is a social experience

A child's symbolic action world is built from the outside in. We are sad because we cry;The large central control brain is there before language, apparently in a potential state just waiting to be galvanized into directivness by wedding itself to the word "I".

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Are you willing to day then that if I was the last man I would have no sense of self?

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Chumly,

No...if you were the last you would already have a concept of "self" via language. If you were the first then the concept holds.

Coberst,

Its a pity you don't seem to contribute to well established threads on "social reality" instead of trying to start threads from a pedantic basis as though you were introducing something new.

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fresco wrote:

Chumly,

No...if you were the last you would already have a concept of "self" via language. If you were the first then the concept holds.

Coberst,

Its a pity you don't seem to contribute to well established threads on "social reality" instead of trying to start threads from a pedantic basis as though you were introducing something new.

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fresco wrote in
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66203&highlight=

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Cyracuz,

For a more academic source of analysis of the concept of "self" try this.

http://www.univie.ac.at/constructivism/papers/2003/taverniers-self.pdf

It seems that the social reality of "self" is at the foundations of "narrative theory"(http://www.philosophy.ucf.edu/n.html). This paper also refers to second order cybernetics (the observation of observation) as an analysis framework. The conclusions of the writer support a "multi-faceted self" whose disemination is identical to (not caused by) different socialization experiences. In this sense "social reality" and "self" are indistinguishable.

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fresco wrote:

Chumly,

No...if you were the last you would already have a concept of "self" via language. If you were the first then the concept holds.

Oh I see.

1) What if I was the "only" and there was no "first" or "last", at least to my knowledge?

2) Cliché as this scenario may be, what if I was generated from an interstellar automated crèche, which correctly landed on a very habitable planet, but all the automated crèche's support systems failed expect (of course) for its ability to sustain the birthing and other minimal support until I was self-sustaining from the planet itself?

3) As I went about my daily routine of picking fruit and such (think easy-living alien planet) would I have no realization of individuality and self and think no more of myself than a rock?

4) What if there were intelligent, or semi-intelligent or apparently-intelligent creatures of which I only saw at some distance, and only after my 30th year of "alone"?

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Chumly,

The closest to your hypothetical scenario's are children raised by animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

It is clear that such children appear to have "mental problems", Such findings give some support to the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (that thought is dependent on language).

Even Dennett a celebrated deflationist of "consciousness" admits the apparent necessity for "language" in "thinking". The segmentation of the world into "things" including "selves" is clearly acquired via socialization through language. On this point notice in particular a mother naturally using phrases like "Mummy do it" instead of "I'll do it" in early communications with children. Notice also the different forms of "you" in other languages (e.g. French tu and vous) which characteruze different aspects of "reality". (Such differentiatons do not merely apply to "animate objects"....the Hopi for example different words for "water that is taboo to drink" and "water that is okay")

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fresco wrote-

Quote:

the Hopi for example have different words for "water that is taboo to drink" and "water that is okay")

Given that "water" doesn't mean distilled H2O I have the same weakness myself. There's "gnat's piss" and properly kept John Smith's Extra Smooth for example. Me heap big chump.

Why don't you contribute to the well established thread on the Science versus Religion thread fresco? I know you are aware of it. I even provided you with an opportunity to give them some Wittgenstein.

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Spendius,

If you care to requote that opportunity I will reply to it here (not tonight !), but I tend to avoid overly long threads which veer towards esoteric alleys.

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fresco wrote:

....I tend to avoid overly long threads which veer towards esoteric alleys.

Some good natured teasing I think may be in order here!

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fresco wrote:

Chumly,

The closest to your hypothetical scenario's are children raised by animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

It is clear that such children appear to have "mental problems", Such findings give some support to the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (that thought is dependent on language).

Even Dennett a celebrated deflationist of "consciousness" admits the apparent necessity for "language" in "thinking". The segmentation of the world into "things" including "selves" is clearly acquired via socialization through language. On this point notice in particular a mother naturally using phrases like "Mummy do it" instead of "I'll do it" in early communications with children. Notice also the different forms of "you" in other languages (e.g. French tu and vous) which characteruze different aspects of "reality". (Such differentiatons do not merely apply to "animate objects"....the Hopi for example different words for "water that is taboo to drink" and "water that is okay")

Intersting stuff as always, much thanks! I'm not sure real world Romulus and Remus' show they have no sense of self, perhaaps "I" is an abstract concept only, generated by social structure alone; but I think my lone man on an alien world would have a sense of self by the fact of his existence plus his powerful brain. In any case these real world Romulus and Remus' most definitely were not left to their own devices as in my scenarios.

fresco wrote:

....I tend to avoid overly long threads which veer towards esoteric alleys.

Some good natured teasing I think may be in order here!

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Chumly,

Point taken on the teasing Laughing

One overview of homo sapiens as a species points out the unique association between (a)language use (b) long period of maturational dependency on parents and (c) self awareness. It is this cluster which provides the scientific impetus to the preceeding discussion. In this respect Spendius is on target when he mentions Wittgensteiin (who said
"the limits of my language are the limits of my world")

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Are you fully convinced that no formalized outside inputted language plus no period of maturational dependency on parents or otherwise (my scenarios I guess work well here) must equal no self awareness?

I find it a bit hard to believe that all individuals would be that powerless. But then I have no evidence to support my belief that at least some individuals would be able to become an "I" on their own.

As to "the limits of my language are the limits of my world"
How does that explain how a boxer communicates in the ring?
How does that explain how a certain glance conveys more than words?
How does that explain all the subtle manifestations of body language?
How does that explain scent bonding?
How does that explain dance?
How does that explain music?
How does that explain the ability (perceived or real) for me to communicate with myself in an internal way I can't describe with words?

If Wittgensteiin meant "the limits of my language are the limits of my world" in the most literal and absolute sense, perhaps his world was overly intellectualized and he dismissed the myriad communications that did not neatly fall into the precepts of "my language"?

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Chumly,

By "language" we need to include "paralinguistic features" such as facial gestures. In this sense human language goes above and beyond animal communication to the domain of abstract combinatorial sound tokens with which we "negotiate reality" in the sense that an abstract token or "word" attaches "permanence" to aspects of the flux.

Piaget could be pitted against the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis from his position that "self" involved "decentration" at the level of sensory motor responses. (Decentration can be viewed as a realization that the origin of actions can shift like the origin of a cartesian graph). However unless we argue that some form of "innate mathematics" is part of "cognition" and separate from "ordinary language" it is hard to go too far along the Piaget track.

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Thanks! Very interesting stuff, although I most often end up with more questions than I started with.

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Chumly,

Questions are the norm !

If you can solve "consciousness" you would be rich. Smile

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Consciousness is a social experience

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