A third alternative

Synchronicity again, Cyracuz. Just dedicated a song to you on the radio thread.

My "intuition" is cognitive insight. I awakened last evening with the words, "By his stripes we are healed", and have thought about that all day as a philosophy of dealing with the pain in this world and the pain outside and inside of each individual.

Well, science only describes the object of our experience. I do not think it delves into the realm of experience nor absolute value (which I think is at its roots intuitive).

I guess I prefer a somewhat gestaltish point of view.

Me too ray. Or more acurately, that is what has come of my intuitive approach. So far at least.

Letty, maybe it's the collective unconsciousness. :wink:

I rather suspect that scientists would be hamstrung if they lacked intuition.

Good point, set.

But scientists cannot trust their intuition. They must verify it before acting on it. As I see it, this verification is what science is all about.

Others who do not pretend to be scientists would be as well advised to examine with care the implications of their intuitive thought. One is well advised to look before leaping, whether or not one pursues a career in science.

Good advice that.

But look too hard and you might lose your nerve. Implications are never more than predictions, and they might not come true.

Yes, pithy sayings suffer from simply having the appearance of wisdom, while not necessarily imparting wisdom. To "look before you leap," we might add "time and tide wait for no man."

Yes, and standing before the cliff we have suddenly burdened ourselves with many things to make the decision harder.

A Third Way eh?

Here in the UK we've been saddled with that for the last 10 years (joke)

If there is an alternative to religion or science I doubt intuition would work.

Our problem, and by that I mean the human race, is that we are social animals and like to be part of groups.

Religions mainly are mass movements with the believers all accepting the tenants of their faith.

Scientific proof is there for all to see. Accept it (the great majority do) or wait for the proof to be disproved.

Intuition unfortunately will produce 7000 billion differing viewpoints - not a good thing in my (intuitive) opinion.

As there are fewer than 7,000,000,000 people on the planet, i assume you're suggesting that quite a few people are of two minds on the subject . . .

By the way, although i am enjoying this discussion, i don't think that intuition is a third way. In the first place, the notion that there are currently only two ways of looking at the world is a dichotomous view--it partakes of a western penchant for dualism.

I can think of at least one other alternative, which is ideology (in the political or social sense). One might argue that ideology and religion are one and the same. I disagree. Certainly, as is the case with organized religion, adherents of an ideology tend to look down upon those with whom they disagree, and consider them to be wrong, and unacceptably wrong. Adherents of an ideology have shown themselves to frequently be willing to kill others with whom they disagree. However, religion concerns itself with cosmic origins, and is often predicated upon the notion of an overarching plan for the cosmos. Ideology concerns itself with human affairs, and does not necessarily posit any particular cosmic origin. Yet the adherents of an ideology will concern themselves with the implications and ramifications of ideology to the exclusion of other considerations, whether philosophical or religious.

Philosophy could be yet another alternative to religion or science, although it often concerns itself with either or both.

I've already pointed out that intuition is a valuable tool for the scientist. I think that intuition is at the heart of religious belief. Humans consider themselves to be (a conceit) the only "creators" in their environment. They create that which did not previously exist, while other animals simply exploit what is. From this, it appears that they assume that the cosmos must have been created--an anthropomorphic conceit. The existence of a deity seems to me to be the a sort of first principle of intuition.

Set, I'd be interested to hear of other categories you'd list for ways of looking at the world.

Cyracuz, thanks for making this thread. I was just thinking of something along these lines this last week, yet still formulating it into words.

I know I am not a scientist, in the sense of approaching the world with caution and great mental dexterity. No, I'm not that quick in the head nor that thoughtful.
To be honest, scientists have always baffled me. To get truly into that skin of living.

Lately, I have been finding myself to be most comfortable and sane-like when in an environment that demands my immediete attention to need.
This is weird to talk about, it is difficult to find the words.

Ok, do you ever feel that words and your environment is pitted against you and so overwelmingly 'ill' in a way, to what is good for a human being? That is what it feels like. Like, the minds about one are playing some damn wicked games and communication is all haywire.
Where is there room in this world for simply being? Too many damned people, imo.

I think this is relevent to the conversation. Sometimes the leaps beyond and within worldviews create patterns of their own and no one really is able to have a 'pure' view of their own. I dunno if it is possible to get into another's skin truly and fully. Can only know me.

I would say, based on what is presented here, that fit more nicely with 'intuitive'.
Intruitive and reactive, to be true.
I jump the cliff without thinking on it some days, and other days I analyze it.

I am driven by need. I am lazy. I like to smell the flowers when I can, and when someone else is watching my back.

Faith has nothing to do with it for me: Either I want something bad enough to jump, or need it enough, or I don't do it. End of story, really.

To me, intuition is not an alternative to science, philosophy and religion. It should underlie them insofar as it not just a method (as in empathic understanding, verstehen); intuition is synomyous, for me, with insight and understanding; as such it is the very goal of all inquiry. If I do not intuit mathematical and philosophical principles, or religious insights, they are simply opaque to me. Insight, understanding or intuition can be mathematical, verbal (either discursively logical or poetic) or aesthetic (as in apprecating a work of visual art), Mysticism, of course has to do with intuition in an intense, and perhaps special, way. In science, intuition has also to do with--and I think this was Setanta's point--the generation of hunches that are refined into the form of falsifiable hypotheses.

JL and Set

You are both right that intuition is an important part of both science and religion.

But in both cases, and also in ideology, we interact on terms. Our terms. That results in a predetermination of the outcome which can be misleading. While scientific method might be infallible, the direction we chose to take it is not subject to scientific reasoning. The terms of ideology and science in the days of WW2 were such that creating a nuclear bomb was an outcome of much promise.


flushd

I have to say that when I find myself in an environment that demands my immediate attention to need I become miserable before too long. When all needs are fulfilled and out of the way is when I am happy. My friends call me lazy because I spend so much time doing what they call nothing. But then again, maybe just listening to your thoughts is doing nothing...

As the buddhist say, "Don't do something; just sit there!"

As I see it, ideology functions to justify either the status quo or radical change. That is to say, ideologies can be either conservative or revolutionary, whereas mythologies are always conservative.

Returning to the fray I can accept ideology as a possible third way. As a concept it competes with religion and science as a template for a way of life/group understanding and outline for a socitity to follow.

The number of practical ideologies to follow or accept must be somewhat limited which allows a sufficient number of people to operate any ideology successfully as a group activity.

As for mythology, to my mind the various forms of it merge into religion to easily.

JL

I agree with your thoughts about ideology and mythology. Ideology serves to justify. It is not a pattern one applies for understanding, as is the case with science or religion.

And that is why I am reluctant to say that ideology is a suitable tool for understand anything. I am wary of ideology, and to be honest, a little contemptuous towards those that embrace ideology wholeheartedly. (A character flaw you might say, though one I seek to remedy.)

I am very fond of ideas though.