Treya
 
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 09:37 am
Quote:
John 12
45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.


Ok. Yet he also said:

Quote:
Matthew 10
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


If that's not judgement I don't know what is. So what about this:

Quote:
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


Hold on. I thought he came to "save" the world not to "judge" it? Yet, isn't he judging who's "worthy" of him right here?

Quote:
Matthew 5

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


So first he says I didn't come to judge but to save. Then he says he came to bring a sword to earth not peace. Now he's saying he didn't come to destroy but to fulfill. But didn't he come to fulfill the law so that the world could be "saved"? So if christ came to "fulfill" the law, the righteous requirement from God, that the "world" could be saved, why then in the very next sentance does he go on to say, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments..." If he did in fact fulfill the law as he himself said he came to do, then why do we have to worry about keeping the commandments? He already fulfilled the requirement through his death and resurrection, correct?

So let's talk about this "gift" from God. His only begotten son, sent to the world to pay for our sins, since we couldn't fulfill the law on our own. Yeah, he sent Jesus to do it for us, but then commanded us to keep his commandments, right? Hmmm... So what is this free gift then? Is it really free? It doesn't seem to me it is.

Quote:
Romans 5
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.[/b] 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore, as through one man's (Adam) offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's (Jesus) righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.


So this free gift came to ALL men. Not some. Not just the ones who follow the commandments, but ALL men. Alright, I expect to hear the argument, "Yeah, sure, just because you are given a gift doesn't mean you have to "receive" it." Right? Well, do us all a favor and save your breath. The free gift came to ALL men. Jesus came to "save" ALL men. To pay the price for ALL men. Not just you self-righteous, church going, whooorahs. So let's talk about "free gifts". Who benefits from a free gift? Well, the one's who receive it, of course.

However, what are the conditions of receiving it? If I were rich and were to donate $1 million dollars to an agency to help the runaway teens who benefits from that gift? Everyone involved. The staff, because their paychecks are certain not to bounce for the next year or so, the kids because there's certain to be food on the table, clothing to be worn, beds to sleep in. The shelter itself because the updates they've been wanting to do are now possible, and so forth. Everyone benefits from that gift. Not just the one's who deserve it. Not just the ones who have good behavior. Not just the ones who follow all the rules and expectations.

That's a FREE gift. What "christians" claim God is offering is not free. It comes with a price. Therefore it's not even a gift if you ask me. It's an option disguised as a "gift" by the "believers", to make it seem like you and I are the one's losing out by not receiving this "free gift". However, if it were really "free" then it would benefit us no matter what we believed. No matter what we confessed, because it is after all "free" to ALL men.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 09:55 am
Jesus just talks too damn much..
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 11:00 am
Seriously, I think Jesus said a lot of stuff, and then like everyone else, maybe rethought their position on that stuff.

Then, he said the new stuff and it got written down along with the old stuff, and thousands of years later people are still getting their panties in a twist over which stuff was the stuff he ended up meaning to say.

I've said lots of stuff I don't even remember, but meant every word of it.

Might even have been that Jesus said some of this stuff after having a few glasses of wine, and in the morning thought to himself "Jesus, what the hell was I talking about"?




Thus endth the lesson.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 11:07 am
Wasn't Jesus perfect? Isn't that the point?

Could a perfect being ever say something that was not perfect? Could a perfect being say one thing, and then rethink it later and come to different conclusion?
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:14 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
Jesus just talks too damn much..


Agreed.

Chai Tea wrote:
Seriously, I think Jesus said a lot of stuff, and then like everyone else, maybe rethought their position on that stuff.

Then, he said the new stuff and it got written down along with the old stuff, and thousands of years later people are still getting their panties in a twist over which stuff was the stuff he ended up meaning to say.

I've said lots of stuff I don't even remember, but meant every word of it.

Might even have been that Jesus said some of this stuff after having a few glasses of wine, and in the morning thought to himself "Jesus, what the hell was I talking about"?




Thus endth the lesson.


That's interesting.

maporsche wrote:
Wasn't Jesus perfect? Isn't that the point?

Could a perfect being ever say something that was not perfect? Could a perfect being say one thing, and then rethink it later and come to different conclusion?


Good point maporsche. I guess Jesus wasn't perfect after all.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:38 pm
Does God owe anybody....anything?

Is Jesus in debt to someone or another?

If you do good things.....what would God owe you?
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:38 pm
the problem I see is that, no matter WHAT the bible "says" there is no guarantee it is 'true'


Too many people have had thier hands in writting it, translating it, and republishing it.
If you dont believe me, pick up two different versions of the bible and read them side by side.
One says things the other doesn't.


Ain't got time for that?

Read a childrens bible after you read your bible.

Again.. one says something the other doesn't. Why?
To help the reader no matter what age 'understand' its contents.
That is called change.
And it has happened thousands of times.

So yes, what 'jesus' says in one chapter, is going to be different in another.
And, in a few years, it will be different again

Regardless of what was originally in the bible,said, or seen, man was responsible for deciding what to include in the actual book. ( the bible )

Then a committee of men decided what to actually publish as the bible.

So, what ever they decided was what was published.

So regardless of what started out as 'truth' it has been filtered through man.
Since all men are sinners, how can you trust that sinner to publish truth?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:39 pm
Bartikus wrote:
Does God owe anybody....anything?

Is Jesus in debt to someone or another?

If you do good things.....what would God owe you?


Is this relevant to the topic at hand? Or are you going on another path? Honest question, because I'm failing to see the link to the topic.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:43 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
the problem I see is that, no matter WHAT the bible "says" there is no guarantee it is 'true'


Do you know of any books that have guarantees of truth?
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:45 pm
maporsche wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Does God owe anybody....anything?

Is Jesus in debt to someone or another?

If you do good things.....what would God owe you?


Is this relevant to the topic at hand? Or are you going on another path? Honest question, because I'm failing to see the link to the topic.


Relevant for some....irrelevant drivel for others. Just like anything else I suppose. Who is to say for sure and with a guarantee to boot?
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:47 pm
of course.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:48 pm
But this is where I check out of a religious forum.

I dont argue with christians.

no insult/rude thoughts/anger intended. Smile
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:49 pm
That's the way I think shewolf.

Whatever Jesus said, or didn't at this point has been so batardized as to be unrecognizable.

It was written down. So what? It was written looong after the fact. First off, you're asking me to believe someone remembered exactly what was said? Second, you had to find someone who was literate enough to write the words down. If they didn't know how to spell something, they substituted a word they could spell. They put their own tilt on things. Oh, you say it was "inspired"? That's another way to say you wrote it down the way you wanted to.

Don't even get me started on all the versions and rewrites over the centuries.

In the vastness of the universe, time and space that's incomprehensible, it's really doubtful anyone's eternal life is hanging on some words written that supposedly have never changed.

When are people going to get it through their heads that it was written in a format in a time when there was no fathoming of the enormity of it all?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:55 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
That's the way I think shewolf.

Whatever Jesus said, or didn't at this point has been so batardized as to be unrecognizable.

It was written down. So what? It was written looong after the fact. First off, you're asking me to believe someone remembered exactly what was said? Second, you had to find someone who was literate enough to write the words down. If they didn't know how to spell something, they substituted a word they could spell. They put their own tilt on things. Oh, you say it was "inspired"? That's another way to say you wrote it down the way you wanted to.

Don't even get me started on all the versions and rewrites over the centuries.

In the vastness of the universe, time and space that's incomprehensible, it's really doubtful anyone's eternal life is hanging on some words written that supposedly have never changed.

When are people going to get it through their heads that it was written in a format in a time when there was no fathoming of the enormity of it all?



CT, I don't know if you're a christian or not, so I don't want to read too much into your post.

But, from what I understand that only thing that often holds the Hypothesis of Christianity together is the belief that their holy book, the bible, is infallable, inspired and dictated by god, and is completly accurate in every way, and because THIS book is the actual word of god, and not of man, it is therefore 'better' than every other book/religion.

Now, if you're a christian, I wonder how you reconcile your belief that the bible may not be the word of god, or for that matter even be accurate, with your belief that you are correct in your belief in the bible/god.

If you're not a christian, then I guess this doesn't apply to you. But it would apply to any christian who believes as you do.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 06:55 am
Bartikus wrote:
Does God owe anybody....anything?

Is Jesus in debt to someone or another?

If you do good things.....what would God owe you?


Hey there bart. Wassup? I hope you are doing well. I see what you are saying here. I think. Perhaps if there is a "God" he doesn't owe anyone anything. Perhaps. However I'm tending to lean more towards the thinking now a days that "God" does owe the world something. An explanation at the very least. An explanation to a lot of things really. Like:

Why his "perfect son" wasn't so perfect and couldn't seem to keep his story strait.

Why, if we are all "his creation" he would let so many suffer and bless only the ones who followed his "rules" to live by.

Why he would punish his "creation" for not believing in him without giving one single strait story to believe.

Why he would create so many wars, kill so many people, then condemn "his creation" (created in HIS image mind you) for doing the same.

Why his "believers" treat people so much worse than people who don't believe in him.

I'm sure I could think of a few more, but I'll stop there.

Chai Tea wrote:
That's the way I think shewolf.

Whatever Jesus said, or didn't at this point has been so batardized as to be unrecognizable.

It was written down. So what? It was written looong after the fact. First off, you're asking me to believe someone remembered exactly what was said? Second, you had to find someone who was literate enough to write the words down. If they didn't know how to spell something, they substituted a word they could spell. They put their own tilt on things. Oh, you say it was "inspired"? That's another way to say you wrote it down the way you wanted to.

Don't even get me started on all the versions and rewrites over the centuries.

In the vastness of the universe, time and space that's incomprehensible, it's really doubtful anyone's eternal life is hanging on some words written that supposedly have never changed.

When are people going to get it through their heads that it was written in a format in a time when there was no fathoming of the enormity of it all?


Well, I'm sure this topic is quite bastardized (that is what you mean right?) to many here at A2K. A lot of you have been here for longer than I even knew internet forums existed! It must be so tiresome to go to a forum to see the same stuff over and over and over. I suppose I would probably avoid such topics if it wasn't so "new" to me. However, the one's who have the best input are the ones who have been over it over and over and over. It's kind of a catch 22 I guess.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 08:43 am
Quote:
Well, I'm sure this topic is quite bastardized (that is what you mean right?) to many here at A2K.


Ahh ****...
I broke my own rule and returned to a religious thread.

Spank me please..

seriously.. .. . please? hehe



I dont think that is what Chai means at all.
I think she is just making the point that she agrees with me, and also wonders why people ( not anyone in particular) really fall for the idea that ' the bible has never changed'.

It has. And it is obvious and proven to anyone who wants to take the time to , as I said, read current copies side by side.

Doing that creates no fault. It just shows someone the different ways things are translated.
In seeing that, one can not truthfully say that the bible has never changed.


In fact, I have ( ****.. I gotta find it again.. BUT.. ) a bible from 1711.
In it, it clearly states that people are to treat BLACKS as lower then . They are SLAVES and are stricken WITH COLOR as a punishment for their ANCESTORS sins and need to be treated accordingly

That , is no where in the bible today. Laughing





ok, im leaving now

really!
0 Replies
 
Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 08:51 am
hephzibah wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Does God owe anybody....anything?

Is Jesus in debt to someone or another?

If you do good things.....what would God owe you?


Hey there bart. Wassup? I hope you are doing well. I see what you are saying here. I think. Perhaps if there is a "God" he doesn't owe anyone anything. Perhaps. However I'm tending to lean more towards the thinking now a days that "God" does owe the world something. An explanation at the very least. An explanation to a lot of things really. Like:

Why his "perfect son" wasn't so perfect and couldn't seem to keep his story strait.

Why, if we are all "his creation" he would let so many suffer and bless only the ones who followed his "rules" to live by.

Why he would punish his "creation" for not believing in him without giving one single strait story to believe.

Why he would create so many wars, kill so many people, then condemn "his creation" (created in HIS image mind you) for doing the same.

Why his "believers" treat people so much worse than people who don't believe in him.

I'm sure I could think of a few more, but I'll stop there.


Jesus (pbuh) is NOT the son of God, God has no sons - none! This is clearly repeated more than 5 times in the Quran, to the point where God tells the Christians to get rid of the idea of the Trinity because God is indeed only one and not broken up into thirds as they claim.

"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son.Nay (behold), you prefer the life of this world, but the hereafter is better and more enduring. (Quran al-A'la:16-17)

All the wars are part of the signs of Judgwment Day. I have a really long Hadith that describes all the tribulations that will occur before Judgement Day, among them is the increase of killing and bloodshed.

As for natural disasters, they are nothing more than signs for both the believers and disbelievers (among them those who choose to ignore God's set of commandments).

And never did your Lord destroy the nations, till He had sent to their capital cities a messenger reciting to them Our revelations. And never did We destroy any nations unless its people were evil-doers.(Surah Al-Qasas: 59)

There is a striaght story, read the Quran - unlike the other two Scriptures it has not been changed, there is only one version. Thus why there are no more prophets after Muhammad (pbuh), because God vowed that this was the final message and He vowed it would not change until Judgement Day.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 09:43 am
Raul-7 wrote:
Jesus (pbuh) is NOT the son of God, God has no sons - none! This is clearly repeated more than 5 times in the Quran, to the point where God tells the Christians to get rid of the idea of the Trinity because God is indeed only one and not broken up into thirds as they claim.


What's great is that when YOU say this, no one from the christian camp will challenge you.

When an athiest says this, they get post after post telling them how stupid they are.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 10:11 am
Yeah shewolf, that's what I meant. This topic wasn't being addressed, but that impossible to have a book or message that been around so long and not have changes.

and maporsche.....it's fundementalist christians who believe the bible is infallible.

It is widely believed by other groups of christians that much of the bible is allegorical.

You say you are right because you believe you are right.

You say tomato, I say potato.

If you want to know if I am a christian of your ilk, or one at all, search for slappy doo hoo's thread re born again christians.

Which, BTW, I'm not going to debate here.

I'm outta this thread too.

later gators.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 10:25 am
None of us can testify or give our words to what Jesus said, cause we weren't there and didn't know the dude.

I agree with Chai and the Wolf, in that it is pointless to go on about this given that all we have is a bunch of stories handed down by generation to generation, altered too many times to count.

It's sort of like reading family history. Each person remembers differently, wrote in their own view and according to their own agenda. By the time we get to read about old great great great great grandfather he is nothing but a collage of impressions and distortions.
In my own family history on one side, all the black relatives and 'indians' were convieniently deleted. People deleted from memory and books! sick, but it happens all the time.

Anyhow. According to the stories, Jesus was one multifaceted fellow. Why, he was all things to all people.
Celebrity of the time is all.

Reading the bible is like reading an old tabloid when I think about it.
0 Replies
 
 

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