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The Church: then and now

 
 
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 10:47 am
The Church: Then and Now
Seventeen hundred years ago, the Council of Laodicea was convened. The presiding officer over this council, Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, would establish the Nicene Creed, the standard by which the tenants of Christian doctrine have been measured ever since. Also as a result of this council, the Roman Catholic Canon was agreed upon; fixing the books of the Bible and establishing Sunday as the Lord's day, as if by decree of God Himself.
As for what some of those early church father's believed:
I presume that you are not ignorant of the fact that the living Church is the body of Christ. The Scripture says, "God made man male and female." The male is Christ, and the female is the Church. Moreover, the Books and the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but has existed from the beginning. She was spiritual, just as was our Jesus; but He was manifested in the last days so that he might save us. And the Church, being spiritual, was manifested in the flesh of Christ. [From the so called Second Letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 150], in: Jurgens, 1970: 43].
From what has been said then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just... We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just. (From St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, after 202 AD, in Jurgens, 1970: 185).
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Titus Falvius Clement is considered to be a Roman Church father, having had direct participation in the Roman Church's early organization. The above is an extant quote from the Apocryphal New Testament. Obviously, modern Christianity is very different from then. For more than a thousand years the Catholic church was the only Church, and not until the ?'Protestant Reformation' of 1517 did any other doctrine exist outside of Catholic doctrine. The reformation resulted in the denominational Christianity we know today. But the ?'Christ' of Christian worship today is obviously the same one of Clement's time. This ?'apocryphal book' was well received in the Roman church, and read publicly. Now that modern Christians are diverse in their beliefs, the New Testament has changed to fit those beliefs. Now ?'Christ' and the ?'Church' are not as Catholic as they once were. It is said that time waits for no man. But God does not change, and if the ?'Church' was His, it would not change either.

The Bride of Christ cannot be defiled. She is inviolate and chaste... Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adultress is separated from the promises of the Church; nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his Mother... Does anyone believe that in the Church this unity which proceeds from the divine stability and which is welded together after the heavenly patterns can be divided, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? Whoever holds not fast to this unity holds not to the law of God; neither does he keep faith with the Father and the Son, nor does he have life and salvation. (St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, [AD 251/256], in: Jurgens, 1970: 221).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering. (St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter to all his People, AD 251, in Jurgens, 1970: 229).
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Cyprian, born in 200 a.d. and another ?'father', was made Bishop of Carthage in 248. He was banished in 257 and later beheaded for preaching the gospel from his garden. The rules of the Catholic Church were strict back then. Their beliefs even stricter. Early in the Church of Christ, as this father referred to it, it was understood that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic ?'Church'. Recall again that the Church as modern Christians know it, is the exact same one Cyprian is speaking on. It has been almost eighteen hundred years, and quite a few denominations later, but Christians still believe basically the same thing. Only the Catholic Church in these times are seen as something of an ?'anti-Christ.', and they are the one's most responsible for his popularity. When the Church was young, many non Christians were converted on the basis of these very words. The Christians thought they were doing the heathens a favor. For the Church fathers, there was literally One Church and Christ, one bible and one doctrine that was taught out of it. But the times have changed, and modern Christians have not been educated in these matters.

Furthermore, the more anyone observes that a bishop remains silent, the more he should stand in fear of him. For anyone whom the master of the house sends to manage his business ought to be received by us as we would receive him by whom he was sent. It is clear, then, that we must look upon the bishop as the Lord Himself. (St.Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians,

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons, as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of Apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Trallians, ca.AD 110, in Jurgens, 1970: 20 - 21)
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As for credibility and authority, Ignatius of Antioch is reputed to have been instructed by John himself, and intimately acquainted with Peter and Paul. Ignatius is one of the earliest Church fathers, having been made bishop of Antioch around 70.a.d. He wrote expansively in the Apocryphal New Testament and he is considered a saint by Catholic standard. Ignatius was martyred at the behest of Emperor Trajan not to long after the latter quote. The two quotes provide much of the weight modern clergy enjoy as respected and revered men of the cloth. Modern bishops are diverse in nature, occupying different roles in the various Christian denominations. But in the early Church, the Bishop was to be respected like unto the ?'Father' in heave, whereas deacons were second to them, as Christ was to his Father. As the centuries have progressed, Christianity is a trinity now, the bishop and deacon no longer the powerful leaders of the Catholic Church, but pastors and assistant preachers of the local denomination. Again, modern Christians are unaware of the changes that have taken place since the inception of their belief.

Before Vatican II Ecumenical Council (1962 - 1966)

The Church was identified with the kingdom of God, and considered a perfect society.
The Catholic Church is the one true Church. Outside the Church there is no salvation. Conversion was needed: other Christian Churches were seen as lacking ecclesial character, and it was generally taught that outside the Church there could be no salvation. Certainly, outside Christianity, other religions were deemed as having no salvific value.

Divine revelation only existed in Israel (Old Testament) and Christianity (the Fulfilment of the prophet i.e. promises of the Old Testament in the New).

The Church is based on the sacrament of Holy Orders and the Hierarchy. A direct unbroken lineage could be traced, from the mandate given to St. Peter by Christ, to the present pontificate. The Church was seen in an authoritarian and monarchical mould. The Church was centralised (Rome), with its focus on the Pope.
The Church was a teacher: it is engaged in a monologue - teaching the world.

An emphasis was given to the sacrament of ordination. Through Holy Orders, the charismatic power to teach, preach, forgive, sanctify, dispense divine graces, and govern, was given to the Church.

Catholic life was generally devotional. The lay-person was expected (in the words of Cardinal Octaviani) "to pray, to pay, and to obey". The laity to a great extent was passive. Membership to the Church was defined clearly and in a legalistic manner.

The Roman Catholic Church was legalistic in theological emphasis - uniformity in worship and belief was important.


The above is what the ?'Church of Christ' represented for Catholic leadership and all Christians prior to the Protestant Reformation. During this time, the Church was one, the doctrine was one, and all Christians believed and were taught the exact same thing. This is the part of Christian history that modern Christians have not be educated about. The New Testament contains the verses ?'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism'. Many Christians ignore this part, or conclude it to mean Christianity as a whole. For the church fathers and a thousand years of Christians this was the literal truth for them. There was no other ?'church' to pick up and go to. After the Ecumenical Council, the ?'Church' has changed in the following ways:


The Church is seen as the pilgrim people of God, and seen as sacrament and mystery (Lumen Gentium).
The Catholic Church is now seen as the heart of the one true Church; salvation is not seen as the exclusive possession of the Catholic Church.

The Church recognises that divisions exist within itself and in the wider Christian community. Therefore, ecumenism is important. The Church must become involved in dialogue, which necessitates not only speaking to the world but also listening to it with sensitivity.

There are elements of divine revelation outside Israel and Christianity.

The Church is based on baptism and on the priesthood of all. It is charismatic and must reflect its collegial character.

There are elements of divine revelation outside Israel and Christianity.
Catholic Life is Sacramental and Scriptural: people belong to the Church in different ways and in different degrees.

Laws are less important. Theological pluralism flows from the reality of cultural pluralism in the world. Unity rather is to be seen in diversity, as the Church strives for active participation of all its members according to individual gifts and graces.

The Churches are centred on the local Church and its Bishop.
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These stark contrast between the early ?'Church' under exclusive Roman authority and modern Christianity is a rude awakening. The reasons why modern Christians believe what they believe is explained above by the Catholics themselves. Long ago, christianity was a different religion and run by a totally different set of rules. Rules that provided for the murder of innocent ?'heretics' in the Crusades. Rules that have only relatively recently allowed for denominations and differing doctrines as the above certainly proves.

Previously in the early church, ?'Divine revelation only existed in Israel (Old Testament) and Christianity (the Fulfilment of the prophet i.e. promises of the Old Testament in the New).'

Now in the modern: ?'There are elements of divine revelation outside Israel and Christianity.'

The Christian faith is modeled and built by Catholic decree. In the beginning, Catholics were unanimous, there is only one salvation, and only one way to it. But to suit modern circumstances, which would have to include the Protestant Reformation, Rome changed the ?'rules' again, and no Christian is the wiser. Every single tenant of Christian doctrine was settle on under the Roman Catholic Canon. How can such an ancient Church now be considered ?'anti-Christ' by most ?'non-catholic' Christians?

How can One Church, established by ?'one' man, devolve into the unrecognizable religion it has become? Most Christians believe in the ?'divine' element of the bible, having no idea the part played by Rome and Constantine. Most Christians believe in the saving graces of Jesus ?'Christ', and are completely unaware of these public catholic facts. Check them for yourself, there is a whole website dedicated to the Church and its development. Check them for yourself. This is how Christianity started. I will tell you how it will end.

http://www.mcauley.acu.edu.au/~yuri/ecc/index.html

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,949 • Replies: 25
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souldoctor73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 10:47 am
The Winds of Change
The Winds of Change

Those of you reading this will either recognize the truth, or fear it. You will either believe me or not. You will either investigate it or you won't. You will be concerned for your soul, or you will not be. How do I presume to predict the end of Christianity? Because the prophecies of the Old Testament Christians already believe to have been fulfilled, soon will be. You don't have to believe me. You will see it with your own eyes.

The import of this message are the Prophets of Israel in the Old Testament. According to the Roman ?'canonical' New Testament, these prophecies have been fulfilled. What you have been reading is an opinion formulated by a group of men, who decided what they would invent about the Israelite Yehoshua, and what they would teach you concerning him. You have been given the words of men, presented to you over centuries as literal and true, by this Roman ?'Catholic' (Universal) Church. Believing in the God of Israel, worshiping an Israelite as His Messiah, without any regard for the prophecies of the Lord God of Israel concerning His messiah.

It is a foregone conclusion that the Roman Universal Church is mother to Christianity, as Mary was to Jesus. What Christians fail to understand are the origins of their religious beliefs, having forgotten that their beliefs began with the God of Israel and the Old Testament. That Jesus is the same man Roman officials killed, the Temple of the Lord God was destroyed by the same authorities, and that the Israelites who had managed to survive the revolt of 70 ad., had been scattered to the four winds for nearly three hundred years by 325 ad, when Roman Catholic Canon was ?'authorized'. Declaring the Hebrew Scriptures as ?'old', and their version of history as ?'new'.

The nation of Israel was not consulted on their Law, Prophets, and Writings. Now Christians believe the Law and Ten Commandments to be basically irrelevant, and they remain ignorant concerning the very foundation of what they believe.

The time for ignorance is over. There is no place for the excuses of Christians when the truth is right before you. Do not attempt to accuse me of ignorance when you are ignorant yourselves. For their beliefs, Christians only have the New Testament, Rome's Authorized Version. There is no argument here. You have already been deceived. It is you who must investigate the severity of the deception.

The New Testament has, ironically, taught you that ?'by their fruits ye shall know them'. The false prophets. The ravening wolves. The blind leaders of the blind. The wicked of the religious world who would try to lead the innocents astray from the True God. What are those fruits? Only the worldly would be concerned with them, and the innocents would suffer because of it. More than true considering the wealthy and their treatment of the ?'less fortunate', but how many of the wealthy are ?'not of the world' Christians?

Those of you who worship Jesus as ?'Christians', believe Paul. It was Paul who established your worship services, your church hierarchy, and the church itself. It was nothing for Paul to change what Jesus taught, why do you believe it impossible for Paul to have added words to Jesus' mouth? Why else could there be clergy called 'father' and 'rabbi', explicitly against the teachings of Jesus? Why didn't Jesus tell you Christians 'forsake not the gathering of yourselves to the assembly'? Why didn't Jesus teach you to 'lay by in store upon the first day of the week'? Would it have been *any* harder for him to teach people how to run 'his' church, when he taught them how they should Live, who they should Honor, and Serve? Jesus said 'I and My Father are One', he also said 'I go to my Father, and your Father. My God, and your God'. Jesus said 'One Father, above all, in all, through all'.

We also know, beyond absolutely any doubt, that Jesus was a 'Jew', or more accurately an Israelite. So then, who was his Father and God? The God of Israel. Therefore The Lord God of Israel, is the One Father, God Almighty, Lord of All, and Creator. Why do the Christians miss this? Jesus taught the tenant of his Israelite ancestry: Hear O' Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is One. If he claimed to be the Son of God, he also taught that like him, it is something everyone can be.

Then he died. And Paul starts with the Church of the Romans. After Jesus is dead, and 'ascended'. If the majority of Christians would erase-every single word-in the New Testament *NOT* attributed to Jesus, they would have a different religion. It is impossible for any Christian, young or old, devout or no, to deny this truth. If *ONLY* the words of 'Jesus marked in Red' were left in their precious New Testaments?

It would be the End of Catholicism. The entire concept of Christianity, as it is known today, would disintegrate. Churches across the world would be abandoned, wealthy preachers would be a thing of the past, having to actually ?'work' for their wealth, and
the righteous would cover the land like locusts.

There would be no Trinity, there would be no church, there would be no Christians! There would be no QUESTION as to who God IS. Who Yehoshua worshiped as Father and Master of him. But Rome promoted a particular version of the Truth. The Church established by Rome 1700 years ago, has mislead the world into believing a lie. A world now filled to overflowing with despicable evil, hate, and deceit. The needy suffer while the clergy gain wealth.

The ?'devout' are more wicked than the prostitute. The ?'saintly' more depraved than the criminal master mind. Truly wolves in sheep's clothing. Liars and thieves creating poverty by stealing the meager earnings of those they lie to. Vampires, blood suckers, and you Christians know them and they know themselves. Feeding off the weak minded members of their churches, feigning righteousness in front of their members, consumed with lust behind closed doors.

Propping up shacks on every corner claiming the saving graces of ?'Christ' are within and all you see is singing, dancing, shouting, and the offering basket being passed around. You Christians know the truth of it. You hate to see the basket come your way! Why then, don't they teach 'sell your wealth?' 'Get out of the world'? 'Humble yourselves, and live meekly before all men'? These are the teachings of Jesus are they not?

But the false prophets teach 'give and it shall be given unto you', 'forgive and you shall be forgiven,' and 'accept Jesus into your heart, believe what I say, and heaven will be your home.' Jesus taught personal responsibility. The Church teaches absolution of responsibility by the blood of the Roman sacrificial lamb.

I despise ignorance. I hate the ignorance of those who so plainly chose to remain in such an obviously ignorant state. Those who refuse to investigate, for themselves, lest they find Truth. That you must live right in order to BE right. The material wealth of the world and the wicked therein will be consumed by the flames of judgment.

Speak your empty words. Live your empty lives. Enjoy your empty wealth. And in your empty minds, you will recognize the doom reserved for you. It will kindle your anger and your hatred and you will rage at my audacity. But you will not fear. No Fear of God is present in you. You fear for your dignity, your lifestyle, and your face before men. Your hearts are blacker than pitch, but you smile with goodwill and grace. You hide behind your beliefs and devour those who seek your compassion, but God has set in motion the redemption of those you abuse.

For those of you who do fear, turn back to the Lord God of Israel and seek Him while there is yet still time. Do not allow yourselves to be convinced of your salvation in a doctrine taught by a ?'Universal' Church laden with the guilt of their own filthy wickedness.

God will redeem Israel, and fulfill His promise to His people. Roman Church has lied to you and told you that Jesus has done this, but the world is proof. The poor are proof. I am proof. I have done the research, and I have presented it to you. If you are concerned for salvation, seek the Lord God in truth and Spirit. Start with Him in all things. The innocents are already protected by God. Those who can do nothing for themselves but try to survive. As for you who read His word and call upon His name in ignorance, He will not spare your guilt when comes to recompense the wicked for their sins.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 12:46 pm
Is there something in here that youd deem to discuss with me, a mere mortal? Or do you just like to hear your own keys clacking.


Curious
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 01:36 pm
Go tell it on the mountain, preacher man.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:17 pm
Farmer, i think what we've got here is yer garden variety religious fanatic troll, who goes from discussion board to discussion board, posting his rant . . . we may be sufficiently blessed as not to see this joker again . . . course, effen he shows up again, i've got a squirrel gun, and we could have us some fun . . .
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fealola
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:17 pm
Holy Moley!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:18 pm
git a rope.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:23 pm
Garden religious fanatic gnomes....may sell in the midwest....porcelain freaks with bibles and all....
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:42 pm
Yer a marketin' gee-neye-us, Cav . . .
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:54 pm
Hands off my patent, Set Very Happy
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 03:13 pm
Its who gets to the patent office first cav. If you start out now, you could get to Otteewah by breakfast
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 03:16 pm
I could be downtown in an hour...
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souldoctor73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 05:35 pm
I am here for as long as I need to be. If any of you wish to challenge me with your knowledge, please do so. I await your futile efforts with eager anticipation.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 08:21 pm
lets talk about bessel functions and their uses in spectral analyses and trend surfaces of the fifth order.

Thats in the realm of imaginary also.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 08:28 pm
I have always been curious about the use of gyroscopes in pre-nuclear submarines. Oh and also unicorns on the dark side of the moon.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:01 pm
I wanna know how many members of the California American League baseball team are able to boogaloo on the Operator Interface of yer common household variety dress makers pin . . .
0 Replies
 
Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:18 pm
Soul D, having proclaimed all attempts at refutation futile in advance of actually reading them, I am forced to conclude there would be no point in discussing this topic with you, even if I was a Christian and remotely interested in dissecting what is, to me, a pointless and fairly stupid religion in all its forms, ancient and modern.

Please do not make the mistake of presuming the lack of serious responses you have received so far is a sign of the superiority of your position. I believe the real problem is that your long, smug, self-righteous, humorless tract has caused you to be mistaken for some sort of lunatic, the kind of person one crosses the street to avoid. Perhaps, if you approached your subject with a touch of humility, rather than passing yourself off as some latter-day oracle....or does absolute conviction cause one to lose touch with the lesser mortals?
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:18 pm
A person who speaks of the true God would do so with a little less insolence.

You know, Satan had a pretty good grasp of the Scriptures, but there were parts that confused even him.

Maybe that's your beef......
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:28 pm
Soul,

Do you recognize this?


But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

It's from the Sermon on the Mount


I rest my case.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 04:49 am
Greyfan wrote:
. . . mistaken for some sort of lunatic, the kind of person one crosses the street to avoid.


Mistaken ? No mistake here . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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