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The Church: then and now

 
 
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 10:47 am
The Church: Then and Now
Seventeen hundred years ago, the Council of Laodicea was convened. The presiding officer over this council, Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, would establish the Nicene Creed, the standard by which the tenants of Christian doctrine have been measured ever since. Also as a result of this council, the Roman Catholic Canon was agreed upon; fixing the books of the Bible and establishing Sunday as the Lord's day, as if by decree of God Himself.
As for what some of those early church father's believed:
I presume that you are not ignorant of the fact that the living Church is the body of Christ. The Scripture says, "God made man male and female." The male is Christ, and the female is the Church. Moreover, the Books and the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but has existed from the beginning. She was spiritual, just as was our Jesus; but He was manifested in the last days so that he might save us. And the Church, being spiritual, was manifested in the flesh of Christ. [From the so called Second Letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 150], in: Jurgens, 1970: 43].
From what has been said then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just... We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just. (From St. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, after 202 AD, in Jurgens, 1970: 185).
The Bride of Christ cannot be defiled. She is inviolate and chaste... Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adultress is separated from the promises of the Church; nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his Mother... Does anyone believe that in the Church this unity which proceeds from the divine stability and which is welded together after the heavenly patterns can be divided, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? Whoever holds not fast to this unity holds not to the law of God; neither does he keep faith with the Father and the Son, nor does he have life and salvation. (St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, [AD 251/256], in: Jurgens, 1970: 221).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering. (St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter to all his People, AD 251, in Jurgens, 1970: 229).
Furthermore, the more anyone observes that a bishop remains silent, the more he should stand in fear of him. For anyone whom the master of the house sends to manage his business ought to be received by us as we would receive him by whom he was sent. It is clear, then, that we must look upon the bishop as the Lord Himself. (St.Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians,

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons, as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of Apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Trallians, ca.AD 110, in Jurgens, 1970: 20 - 21)
Before Vatican II Ecumenical Council (1962 - 1966)

The Church was identified with the kingdom of God, and considered a perfect society.
The Catholic Church is the one true Church. Outside the Church there is no salvation. Conversion was needed: other Christian Churches were seen as lacking ecclesial character, and it was generally taught that outside the Church there could be no salvation. Certainly, outside Christianity, other religions were deemed as having no salvific value.

Divine revelation only existed in Israel (Old Testament) and Christianity (the Fulfilment of the prophet i.e. promises of the Old Testament in the New).

The Church is based on the sacrament of Holy Orders and the Hierarchy. A direct unbroken lineage could be traced, from the mandate given to St. Peter by Christ, to the present pontificate. The Church was seen in an authoritarian and monarchical mould. The Church was centralised (Rome), with its focus on the Pope.
The Church was a teacher: it is engaged in a monologue - teaching the world.

An emphasis was given to the sacrament of ordination. Through Holy Orders, the charismatic power to teach, preach, forgive, sanctify, dispense divine graces, and govern, was given to the Church.

Catholic life was generally devotional. The lay-person was expected (in the words of Cardinal Octaviani) "to pray, to pay, and to obey". The laity to a great extent was passive. Membership to the Church was defined clearly and in a legalistic manner.

The Roman Catholic Church was legalistic in theological emphasis - uniformity in worship and belief was important.
The Church is seen as the pilgrim people of God, and seen as sacrament and mystery (Lumen Gentium).
The Catholic Church is now seen as the heart of the one true Church; salvation is not seen as the exclusive possession of the Catholic Church.

The Church recognises that divisions exist within itself and in the wider Christian community. Therefore, ecumenism is important. The Church must become involved in dialogue, which necessitates not only speaking to the world but also listening to it with sensitivity.

There are elements of divine revelation outside Israel and Christianity.

The Church is based on baptism and on the priesthood of all. It is charismatic and must reflect its collegial character.

There are elements of divine revelation outside Israel and Christianity.
Catholic Life is Sacramental and Scriptural: people belong to the Church in different ways and in different degrees.

Laws are less important. Theological pluralism flows from the reality of cultural pluralism in the world. Unity rather is to be seen in diversity, as the Church strives for active participation of all its members according to individual gifts and graces.

The Churches are centred on the local Church and its Bishop.


Now in the modern: http://www.mcauley.acu.edu.au/~yuri/ecc/index.html

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,607 • Replies: 25
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souldoctor73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 10:47 am
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 12:46 pm
Is there something in here that youd deem to discuss with me, a mere mortal? Or do you just like to hear your own keys clacking.


Curious
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 01:36 pm
Go tell it on the mountain, preacher man.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:17 pm
Farmer, i think what we've got here is yer garden variety religious fanatic troll, who goes from discussion board to discussion board, posting his rant . . . we may be sufficiently blessed as not to see this joker again . . . course, effen he shows up again, i've got a squirrel gun, and we could have us some fun . . .
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:17 pm
Holy Moley!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:18 pm
git a rope.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:23 pm
Garden religious fanatic gnomes....may sell in the midwest....porcelain freaks with bibles and all....
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:42 pm
Yer a marketin' gee-neye-us, Cav . . .
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 02:54 pm
Hands off my patent, Set Very Happy
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 03:13 pm
Its who gets to the patent office first cav. If you start out now, you could get to Otteewah by breakfast
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 03:16 pm
I could be downtown in an hour...
0 Replies
 
souldoctor73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 05:35 pm
I am here for as long as I need to be. If any of you wish to challenge me with your knowledge, please do so. I await your futile efforts with eager anticipation.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 08:21 pm
lets talk about bessel functions and their uses in spectral analyses and trend surfaces of the fifth order.

Thats in the realm of imaginary also.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 08:28 pm
I have always been curious about the use of gyroscopes in pre-nuclear submarines. Oh and also unicorns on the dark side of the moon.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:01 pm
I wanna know how many members of the California American League baseball team are able to boogaloo on the Operator Interface of yer common household variety dress makers pin . . .
0 Replies
 
Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:18 pm
Soul D, having proclaimed all attempts at refutation futile in advance of actually reading them, I am forced to conclude there would be no point in discussing this topic with you, even if I was a Christian and remotely interested in dissecting what is, to me, a pointless and fairly stupid religion in all its forms, ancient and modern.

Please do not make the mistake of presuming the lack of serious responses you have received so far is a sign of the superiority of your position. I believe the real problem is that your long, smug, self-righteous, humorless tract has caused you to be mistaken for some sort of lunatic, the kind of person one crosses the street to avoid. Perhaps, if you approached your subject with a touch of humility, rather than passing yourself off as some latter-day oracle....or does absolute conviction cause one to lose touch with the lesser mortals?
0 Replies
 
maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:18 pm
A person who speaks of the true God would do so with a little less insolence.

You know, Satan had a pretty good grasp of the Scriptures, but there were parts that confused even him.

Maybe that's your beef......
0 Replies
 
fealola
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2003 11:28 pm
Soul,

Do you recognize this?


But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

It's from the Sermon on the Mount


I rest my case.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 04:49 am
Greyfan wrote:
. . . mistaken for some sort of lunatic, the kind of person one crosses the street to avoid.


Mistaken ? No mistake here . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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