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Is euthanasia acceptable?

 
 
rockpie
 
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 05:05 am
what are your opinions on euthanasia? for me, i think it should not be allowed because it is my belief that it is morally, medically and socially wrong. but i'd like to hear some other views on this contraversial topic.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,850 • Replies: 50
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 08:10 am
My beloved beagle was suffering from end stage renal failure which is incurable. I tried subcutaneous IVs and special diets, but she wouldn't eat and was miserable. I finally had her euthanized, and see nothing morally, medically, or socially wrong with it.

Do you think that I should have kept torturing her with useless treatments so that I could prevent her from dying for a few more days or weeks? What kind of sadistic person would do that to anyone, man or beast?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 08:18 am
You are responding so a member who has expressed narrow-minded Christian views in the past. I rather suspect that you will be told, Terry, that animals and humans are different, and that your example is not applicable. I agree with you about what you've written, for my own part.

I suspect that with regard to humans who can make a decision, those who could would object. But there are those who would not object, because they might be suffering as Terry's beagle suffered. There are those who don't want to be resuscitated in certain circumstances, and don't want to be hooked up to life-support, and have made their wishes known to their families. I agree with the individual's right to make such a choice, and think that it should be honored.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 09:21 am
Setanta, my guess is that Rockpie is too young to have watched anyone die a slow, painful death knowing that their insides are being devoured by cancer. Perhaps s/he believes that it is OK to withhold food and water and let someone starve to death, or fail to insert a breathing tube and let them gasp until they are too weak to breathe any more, or refuse to administer enough morphine to relieve intractable pain from a terminal disease because it might depress breathing or lead to addiction!

If Rockpie is a Christian, chances are s/he thinks it is OK to execute criminals, kill and main civilians with atomic bombs, napalm or cruise missiles, and allow millions of children to starve or die of easily curable diseases. It is OK for the Catholic church to forbid condom use in countries rife with AIDS (they may finally change this absurd stance).

But heaven forbid that we should make life or death decisions for ourselves or our loved ones based on what is humane and ethically right, in the face of religious fanatics who believe that suffering is ordained by God and deserved by the victim.

----

Rockpie, why do you think that it is medically OK to take actions that will cause pointless pain and prolong someone's suffering, but absolutely wrong to end their pain?

Is your answer any different if they are begging for a quick death than if they are incapable of asking for relief?

Is it morally wrong to end their agony sooner than God wants if they have already been "saved" and are assured a place in heaven, no matter what?

In what way does it benefit society to spend millions to keep people alive who would rather be dead, while people with low-paying jobs cannot afford basic medical care?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 09:25 am
Terry wrote:
Setanta, my guess is that Rockpie is too young . . .


That says it all right there.

In another thread, started by Rockpie, he wrote:

rockpie wrote:
i'm 17, from wales and male. thats about all you need to know.


Yes, that is about all that one needs to know--that and the experience of Rockpie's narrow Christian views as expressed in many threads at this site.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 03:49 pm
Our family dog started getting really sick too, and it would only get worse. Painkiller drugs had already started eating at her intestines. We put her to sleep with the whole family present.
The vet came with a shot, and we just held the dog until she faded away.

Considering the alternative I wouldn't have it any other way.

How is that different with humans?

With humans there is the individual's own desires to consider. But if a person should desire death in favor of unknown time of waiting and suffering, I wouldn't stand in the way.

Neither would I accept such a proposition were it offered. As of now, I should probably add, and knock on wood Smile

An issue that clouds everything up in this debate is the aspect of mental health. If a person's desire to die is a result of mental illness, the situation changes. He belongs in a different category.

Another issue is legal ramifications. Old millionares, mentally deprived on their deathbeds could be hurried along by relatives waiting to cash in.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 03:52 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
rockpie wrote:
what are your opinions on euthanasia? for me, i think it should not be allowed because it is my belief that it is morally, medically and socially wrong. but i'd like to hear some other views on this contraversial topic.


And keeping them artifically alive while they suffer and die painfully is not morally or socially wrong?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 04:14 pm
a while ago i visited a friend who was recuperating in hospital after a severe stroke .
his neighbour in the room was a patient in his 80's , who was to have a knee-raplacement operation the next day .
the surgeon visited with him in the evening to explain the surgery and answer any questions he might have .
the two of them seemed to understand each other quite well .
the doctor re-asssured the patient and told him that it was quite a routine operation and that he might be back on his feet within a week ...
but , he said , there was always a possibility of something going wrong .
he pointed out that because of his advanced age , his heart might stop .
he said that we can take "extreme" measures to keep you alive on a machine or we can make sure that you won't suffer any excessive pain .
the gentleman answered the doctor quite camly : "no way do i want to be hooked up to a machine with tubes sticking out of my body just to keep me alive . i've lived a good live and don't want to continue living hooked up to machines " .
the doctor explained that he would have to sign a form stating his wishes .
"where do i sign ? " , he asked .
at first i was a little surprised/shocked to hear the old gentleman speaking so easily about it ... but after thinking about it , i understood him .
before i left the room , i exchanged a few words with the cheery old genleman - i understand he came through with flying colours .
i learned a valuable lesson that evening !
hbg
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 05:27 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
rockpie wrote:
what are your opinions on euthanasia? for me, i think it should not be allowed because it is my belief that it is morally, medically and socially wrong. but i'd like to hear some other views on this contraversial topic.


Hmm, no euthanasia, but you're okay with this? http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2410454#2410454
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 09:17 pm
hamburger
Nice story. Thanks for sharing.

I bet one lesson we can find in it is this; quality over quantity.
I'd rather live thirty good years than ninety ok ones.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 10:32 pm
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 11:12 am
cyracuz wrote :
"I'd rather live thirty good years than ninety ok ones. "

yes , i would agree ! and he was getting close to 90 .
mind you , we know a fair number of 80 plus old that are living very active lives .
(personally , not far away from 80 any more - how time flies when you are having fun :wink: Rolling Eyes ).
hbg
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 01:30 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
Bella Dea wrote:
rockpie wrote:
what are your opinions on euthanasia? for me, i think it should not be allowed because it is my belief that it is morally, medically and socially wrong. but i'd like to hear some other views on this contraversial topic.


And keeping them artifically alive while they suffer and die painfully is not morally or socially wrong?


Putting them to death against their will, or while pretending to speak for them, would be wrong, would it not?

This would include all active or passive methods that bring about their deaths.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 02:19 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
real life wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
rockpie wrote:
what are your opinions on euthanasia? for me, i think it should not be allowed because it is my belief that it is morally, medically and socially wrong. but i'd like to hear some other views on this contraversial topic.


And keeping them artifically alive while they suffer and die painfully is not morally or socially wrong?


Putting them to death against their will, or while pretending to speak for them, would be wrong, would it not?

This would include all active or passive methods that bring about their deaths.


Against their will?

Well, people like you prohibit people like me from having their dying requests. I DO NOT want to be kept alive by machines if that's what's keeping me alive. I DO NOT want to be subjected to tests, treatments and other medical horrors if I have a terminal disease with no hope of recovery.

I guess that letting me die with dignity would make my husband a monster of some sort, right?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 03:03 pm
Such a wonderfully reasonable group of people.

Nietzsche once put it that while it is a terrible thing to deprive a person of his life, it is equally bad to deprive him of his death (i.e., deprive him of his escape from pain and misery).
I have little fear of death, but I dread a long painful dying process, and, worse, the subjection of others to the long care of my withering brain and/or body.

I suspect that Dr. Kervorkian will someday be a culture hero.
By the way, why do we not hear from him (in his prison confinement).
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 03:27 pm
Waiting in a reception area at my doc's, I started reading an issue of Time. No idea the date, and haven't bother to check regarding when it would have been news, however there was a quote there by Hunter Thompson. Stuck in my mind. Apparently, he killed himself at 67 years old. Leaving a note for his wife, to the effect. ..."This ain't fun anymore. I'm 67 years old. That is 17 more years than I wanted or needed. I'm bitchy all the time. " and a little phrase I can't quite remember the wording of, but he is basically telling his wife to deal with it and not make a fuss. Laughing

That is an aside, and Thompson was a weird one. BUT:

I do firmly believe that human beings have a right to their own life. That means, they have a right to choose their own death as they see fit.
If they wish to stick around and keep fighting no matter the cost: I'll back that.
If they are ready to hang their hat here on earth for the final time, with dignity and decision, I'll back that too. (Though if I love you, you are going to have to present your case to me and deal with a bit of arguing first! ).

There is no room for debate, at all, in my mind over this.
If it ever comes to me having to face the decision for myself, I'd want to be surrounded with people who would listen to me, too.
Not treat me like I was already dead, which is sort of how I see it when others forbid or deny a person able to make the choice.
Those who can not make the choice, that is a whole other situation.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 03:39 pm
what woody allen has to say (always a favourite of mine - particularly on saxophone) :

"i recently turned 60 , practically a third of my life is over !"
(i'll drink to that !)

kleinman(woody allen : death , a comedy in one act) :
"it's not that i'm afraid to die , it's just that i don't want to be around when it happens " .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 09:03 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
real life wrote:

Putting them to death against their will, or while pretending to speak for them, would be wrong, would it not?

This would include all active or passive methods that bring about their deaths.


What if it is not against their will? What if someone has made their wishes very clear in this matter, not to be kept alive by machines?

Would you let them die with dignity or would you force measures on them that they they did not want?

Have you ever had to make this decision?

P
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 09:33 pm
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/16120873.htm

Excerpts:

Quote:
Fisher:`Aid in dying' a kinder image than suicide
By Patty Fisher
Mercury News

<snip>

``We're not talking about suicide, when a depressed person or a mentally ill person ends a life that could go on,'' said the Rev. John Brooke. ``A person who is terminally ill is already in the dying process.''

Brooke, 75, is a United Church of Christ minister who got into what I'll call the aid-in-dying movement nearly 20 years ago, after watching a good friend die slowly and painfully from AIDS. I first got to know him in 1992, when he was pastor of Congregational Church of Belmont and campaigning for a ``death with dignity'' ballot measure in California. We talked for hours then about how technology aimed at prolonging life was actually prolonging death and about the right of the terminally ill to end their suffering.


<snip>

Quote:
The initiative would have made California the first state to legalize physician aid in dying, but it failed. In those days, crackpot Jack Kevorkian was the public face of the right-to-die movement. And powerful opponents like the Roman Catholic Church and the California Medical Association campaigned aggressively against it.

Two years later, Oregon passed a similar law -- but with more safeguards -- and it took effect in 1997. This year, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld it despite the Bush administration's efforts to kill it.

Oregon's law has worked as Brooke and others hoped it would. Some people who are near death -- 64 of them in 2005 -- get lethal prescriptions from their doctors, and about half of those die from their diseases without ever taking the pills.

Last year, I heard from Brooke again. He'd retired from his Belmont church but not from his cause. The California Legislature was considering AB 651, a new death-with-dignity bill, and he was pushing it. By that time, Terri Schiavo had replaced Kevorkian as the issue's public face. Polls showed that 70 percent of Californians supported the right to die.



Quote:
In an age of marketing slogans and sound bites, he's alarmed that ``physician-assisted suicide'' is the most common term for his cause.

``The word `suicide' is such a pejorative term,'' he said. ``It makes a lot of difference in the public perception.''

His allies have watched conservatives define what it means to be a patriot and a Christian. They have seen abortion-rights advocates struggle to prove they weren't pro-abortion or anti-life. Now the aid-in-dying forces have gone on the offensive.

In Oregon, the advocacy group Compassion & Choices recently persuaded the state to remove the word ``suicide'' from all references to the Death With Dignity law. Others have appealed to the Associated Press to make ``aid in dying'' the preferred term in its stylebook.

<snip>

Death by any other name is still death. It's hard to look at, hard to talk about. Leaders of the death-with-dignity movement have forced us to talk about the importance of giving dying people comfort and, in the end, the right to end their pain.
And now they've given us the words we need.




I like Oregon's law. It has a lot of safeguards and leaves the final choice in the hands of the person who is terminally ill. It doesn't mean they have to use it, the option is just there should they want it. It is much easier on the families left to cope with the death of a loved one too.

I'd rather see a person have another option besides shooting their brains out for a loved one to find, or having to ask a loved one to do it for them.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 09:58 pm
Re: Is euthanasia acceptable?
Pauligirl wrote:
real life wrote:

Putting them to death against their will, or while pretending to speak for them, would be wrong, would it not?

This would include all active or passive methods that bring about their deaths.


What if it is not against their will? What if someone has made their wishes very clear in this matter, not to be kept alive by machines?
That is a different matter, if an adult has made clear their wishes. It should be extremely clear, not 'oh yeah she told me once upon a time.......'
However, that being said, some things still should be clearly off limits. Withdrawal of food and water so that the patient starves or dehydrates over a period of days, is one example IMO of a route that is not a humane method.

Pauligirl wrote:
Would you let them die with dignity or would you force measures on them that they they did not want?
Yes. No.

Pauligirl wrote:
Have you ever had to make this decision?

P
Yes.
0 Replies
 
 

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