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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 06:14 am
Steve - I do wish you WOULD tell me something, specifically on Bagehot's masterpiece:

Couldn't the EU go the same way as Britain, i.e. with no artificial constitutional "superstructure" but simply considering the existing body of law (of course incorporating all treaties) as sufficient for constitutional purposes?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 07:54 am
HofT wrote:
Couldn't the EU go the same way as Britain, i.e. with no artificial constitutional "superstructure" but simply considering the existing body of law (of course incorporating all treaties) as sufficient for constitutional purposes?


Well, that's how it is done until now.

The problem is that the (old) members started to think about a constituion years back.
So, everything [= treaty etc] actually was just added under the thought: the new constitution will regulate that.
(Okay, it certainly was kind of different. But meanwhile I think, it could have happened such.)
And then the main msitake was made by installing this constituion committee and shortly (relatively spoken) afterwards go on voting for it in the member states.

Although I don't like the momentarily ongoing discussions - I'm really more for a moderate way of acting - exactly this will be the chance (the only? the best?) for a new starting point.

However, like most here, too, I have no idea what would be the best way to do it: we mustn't forget that it isn't the creation of a new state/countyr, it isn't a 'real' constituion, it .... it is totally new!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:21 am
Hoft, just dusting off my copy of Bagehot and having considered all, I think Walter is correct. (Hinteler that is)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:48 am
The US history had divisions at our beginning too, but it was a matter between the north and south - only two. The EU is trying to consolidate 25 countries with different cultures and languages; a much more formidable task. I think the best way to remedy the problem is by tweaking the constitution a little bit at a time rather than one new one that leaves less control for all the 'states.'
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:54 am
Rift widens over EU contributions
French President Jacques Chirac has called on Britain to "make an effort" over the EU budget, amid an escalating row about the UK's rebate.
Speaking alongside German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, Mr Chirac called for "greater fairness" in EU contributions.

Earlier UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was not willing to renegotiate the rebate unless there was a "fundamental review" of EU spending.

Mr Schroeder and Mr Chirac met in Paris ahead of a crucial EU summit next week.

The BBC's Caroline Wyatt in Paris says the war of words has set the scene for a deeply uncomfortable EU summit in Brussels.

Britain will be isolated on the rebate, with the 24 other member states arguing that it should be scrapped, our correspondent adds.

Summit prospects

The row erupted on Thursday, when the French president urged Britain to make a "gesture of solidarity" on the £3bn ($5bn; 4.5bn euros) it gets back from the EU budget each year.





In response, Mr Blair said London would not give up the money.
Even with the rebate, he said, Britain's net contribution to the EU was much greater than that of France - whose farmers receive generous subsidies from the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

On Friday, Mr Blair added that the rebate - which the UK won in 1984 after tough negotiations by then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher - could only be discussed as part of general negotiations on the EU budget.

"If you have a fundamental review of how Europe spends its money, then everything is open to debate," he told reporters.

But during his news conference with Mr Schroeder, Mr Chirac made clear that a 2002 agreement that preserves farming subsidies should be implemented.

"I am not willing to compromise" on this issue, he said.

Ratification call

Mr Schroeder supported the French view. He said Britain had to make a gesture of solidarity if any budget agreement was to be reached.

Next week's EU summit is also overshadowed by the rejection of the European constitution by French and Dutch voters in recent referendums.

In Paris, both Mr Schroeder and Mr Chirac reiterated calls for other members states to go ahead with their own ratification procedures.

Britain, however, has suspended its own plans for a referendum.

Ten member states have already ratified the document. It cannot come into force until all 25 EU countries have approved it.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4079316.stm
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:16 am
This seems to be an odd moment for Chirac and Schroeder to demand that Britain unilaterally abandon a Budget settlement negotiated with the EU almost twenty years ago, and, at the same time declare that no change will be forthcoming in the corresponding continental aspects of the original agreement.

Time, however is on Blair's side. Both Chirac and Schroeder will soon pass from the political scene. Their replacements may hold similar views, however, by then there will be many other issues on the table as well.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:19 am
Blair holds all the aces for the time being. I'm not sure what kind of card game Chirac and Schroeder are playing without any chips.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:29 am
To remember:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40612000/gif/_40612478_net_givers_gra203.gif


Reuters reports slightly different to the BBC, showing Blair more ready for compromise.


Quote:
Pressure mounts on Britain over EU rebate
Fri Jun 10, 2005

By Jon Boyle and Katie Allen

PARIS/LONDON (Reuters) - France and Germany mounted a fierce campaign by European Union leaders on Friday to persuade Britain to accept a reduction of its annual EU budget rebate to help reach a deal on the bloc's long-term finances.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, looking isolated, opened the way to a compromise by suggesting a deal would be possible if EU leaders agreed to a major overhaul of the budget

But tension rose after his finance minister said London could veto any move to cut the multi-billion euro payback and President Jacques Chirac ruled out any compromise over the big farm subsidies that France receives from Brussels.

A showdown is looming at an EU summit next week. Failure to agree the 2007-2013 funding programme would ruin efforts to show the 25-nation bloc is back on track after French and Dutch voters' rejection of the Union's planned constitution.

"I think there'll be a deal in the next week ... There is political pressure. It is easier to get a deal when there is pressure," European Monetary Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia told reporters in London.

But asked about the chances of a quick deal, Swedish Prime Minister Goran Persson said: "I am not over-optimistic."

Each side is taking a tough position over the budget, fuelling tension that has been rising over the constitution, intended to make the enlarged bloc run more smoothly.

Germany and France reiterated calls on Friday for each member state to continue the ratification process, although Britain has suspended moves to hold a referendum.


GERMAN-FRENCH PRESSURE

Britain's rebate was won in 1984 when it was one of the poorest EU countries and got little back from Brussels in farm subsidies, which at that time made up 75 percent of the EU budget.

Although Britain is much richer now, it says that even with the rebate its net contribution to the EU is much greater than that of France.

Chirac, who hosts Blair on Tuesday, reached a joint position on the budget with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder at talks in Paris.

"Our British friends must be aware of how things are changing and therefore of the necessity of a greater fairness in the burden carried by each (member)," Chirac said.

He ruled out any reduction in EU subsidies to French farmers, saying: "I am not willing to compromise".

Sweden's Persson backed Paris and Berlin, saying other EU member state want the British rebate to be gradually reduced.

"We all are in favour of phasing out the British rebate," he told reporters after a meeting in Copenhagen.

Britain is clearly isolated among the EU's 25 member states in demanding to keep the annual rebate, won by Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and worth 4.6 billion euros before the bloc's enlargement last year, diplomats say.

British finance minister Gordon Brown stood firm, telling BBC radio that Britain would use its veto at the EU "if in the national interest it was necessary to do so".

Blair said that even with the rebate, London would pay 2-1/2 times more into EU coffers than Paris under the new budget blueprint.

But he held out an avenue for compromise, calling for wider negotiation about the entire financing of the bloc.

"If you have a fundamental review of how Europe spends its money, then everything is open to debate," he said.

The Common Agricultural Policy took up 40 percent of EU finances to cater for 5 percent of its population and less than 2 percent of its output, Blair said.

"If people want to look again fundamentally at the Common Agricultural Policy of course everything then can be looked at properly," Blair said.

COMPROMISE BID

Enshrined in EU regulations, Britain's rebate would require unanimity to abolish or modify.

Luxembourg, holder of the EU's presidency until July 1 when London takes over, has proposed freezing Britain's rebate at its 1997-2003 level in 2007 and later "set it on a downward path".

Its compromise deal also includes a proposal to cut planned spending to 1.06 percent of gross national income in commitments and 1.0 percent in payments.

Britain, one of six net contributors to the EU budget, wants spending capped at 1.0 percent of gross national income (GNI), a stance backed by Austria, the Netherlands and Sweden.

Schroeder signalled his cash-strapped country might be ready to compromise, although Berlin has indicated it also wants spending held at 1.0 percent.
Source

(An aside: when this agreement - more than 30 years ago, not "almost 20" - was arranged, I couldn't understand that the majority agreed to it.
Fortunately, it didn't open the floodgates to every 'receivable' as I had feared.]
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:37 am
Walter, Your chart shows only 15 countries. What happened to the other ten?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:42 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Walter, Your chart shows only 15 countries. What happened to the other ten?


Since they aren't long enough members, no statistical are to be got (that data are for a period at least over one year).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:48 am
I was curious because on our visit to Malta in April, we were told that the EU provided Malta with financing for the building of their infrastructure. One of the reasons the roads in Malta were being upgraded.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 11:50 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
To remember:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40612000/gif/_40612478_net_givers_gra203.gif


Reuters reports slightly different to the BBC, showing Blair more ready for compromise.


(An aside: when this agreement - more than 30 years ago, not "almost 20" - was arranged, I couldn't understand that the majority agreed to it.
Fortunately, it didn't open the floodgates to every 'receivable' as I had feared.]


OK "more than 30 years ago" - thanks for correcting this detail. Wisely or not an agreement was reached. A deal, as they say, is a deal.

If Walter's data above is correct and represents the net contribution after rebates then the indicated remedy looks to me to be reduced aid to Ireland (which has a higher per capita GDP than the UK) and perhaps Spain, coupled with a greater contribution from France - all to reduce the apparently unreasonable demands on Germany and the Netherlands.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:05 pm
the imbalance stems from the early days and the need to subsidise French farming. It could easily be corrected if no one gave and no one took, but then of course no one would have a EU
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nimh
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:06 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I have never expressed any delight or pleasure whatever on these threads concerning the French/Dutch rejections of the EU constitution.

More than a month ago I did express the opinion that, at 400+ pages, the document was more a body of settled law than a constitution, and that I thought it an unsuitable charter for such a rapidly expanding political body with so many, as yet unresolved, local differences. Francis and Walter pointed out that the constitution, of necessity, incorporated the provisions of the several layers of previous treaties which defined the Union and governed the admission of member states, albeit in a more compact form. I acknowledged the logic of that argument, and that the EU had previously put that kind of complexity to good use in working out things over time. It has indeed been a component of its success so far. Then came the polls suggesting wavering support in France for the constitution, accompanied by reassurances from Francis, and many others in the press as well, that as the hour drew near French voters would see their responsibilities and vote yes. I believe the result surprised us all equally.

George, I never implied or asserted that you personally expressed any glee over the constitution's referendum-induced demise. In fact, you have as ever been as polite as you have been articulate in expressing your particular perspective on the situation.

I myself have noticed a triumphantalist or gleeful schadenfreude though, at least on the net, so I definitely get what Philip Gordon was on about. Of course, I am the first to admit that net communities can at times be highly unrepresentative for the population at large. In fact, I'm betting that probably the overwhelming majority of Americans never even heard of the Constitution - and considering its quick demise, they might well have been wise to focus their attention elsewhere. But yes, there has been American "glee' at the French rejection of the EU constitution, if from the usual quarters, which I suppose is no wonder after the whole freedom-fries type hysteria about the French, much expressed on these boards too. And you can be sure that it was in turn prominently remarked on here in Europe (in Le Monde, for example).
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:25 pm
Walter's graph reminded me of a reply I had still wanted to post earlier.

A while ago, Thomas wrote:
[..] there is something to learn from Timber's comparison with America, Australia, and Britain. (To which he could have added Ireland, Slovakia, and the Baltics, but hasn't.) It is that maybe, contrary to the dominant political philosophy in Western Europe, big government isn't giving the people their money's worth in welfare.

In response, I quizzed about Ireland's status as suggested paragon of free-market orthodoxy, at which Thomas confirmed that "the Cato Institute and the Heritage Foundation, who both peddle free-market orthodoxy for a living, do seem to think so".

OK, long intro. All I had still wanted to add to that was that one element in Ireland's striking economic boom this past decade and a half or so had gone unmentioned here, which would not at all easily fit into the narrative of the country as shining example of the success of libertarian recipes. That would be the billions of dollars that have been pumped into Ireland by ways of structural EU support for underdeveloped regions.

Spain and Portugal are indeed other examples of countries that made an enormous jump, economically, since the early 80s thanks partially or largely to EU support. One can of course point to Greece as a counter-example: just as much EU support there doesnt seem to have moved much whatsoever. But considering the many Socialists who have governed the Iberian peninsula since 1980 the contrast between Spain, Portugal and Ireland on the one hand and Greece on the other doesnt easily evoke a contrast between socialdemocrat and libertarian recipes. Perhaps rather one of administrative culture.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:42 pm
Nimh,

Thank you. However I seriously disagree with you about the supposed "glee" or "freedom fries hysteria" bits, notwithstanding their reported prominence in Le Monde descriptions. The French have been poking their fingers in our eyes for a long time, and Americans have become accustomed to it. Before 1965, a very favorable, even sentimental view of France and the French was the only acceptable portrayal of that country in our films and even music. After that the situation gradually, but steadily changed for the worse. We have come to expect niggling criticism and even serious opposition from France on most issues. Gradually the image of a sneering, irritable and condescending Frenchman, obsessed with preserving his unique cultural expression, replaced the one of freedom-loving, practical and cheerful people that proceeded it. The "Freedom Fries" stuff was mostly used as humor, a joke - both on the French and on ourselves. Americans do take themselves seriously, but not nearly so seriously as do Frenchmen.

There is no rational reason to believe we are in any way benefitted by the rejection of the EU constitution by the French. I have not encountered anyone here who believes this - not a single person. On the contrary there is bewilderment at the reported rejection of "Anglo Saxon" ideas of competitiveness in a document we had no role in creating. Better informed people are saddened by the apparent refusal of many Europeans to rise to the competitive challenges before them - and us as well. There is nothing in any of this for us - or you - to rejoice in. Of all the many things that Europeans can do in the aftermath of these events, complaining about the supposed reactions of Americans is, in my view, just about the worst and least productive.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 01:00 pm
I certainly do not "rejoice" in anything concerning the referendum rejections of the European Constitution. I was in favour and am apprehensive about the time of uncertainty its rejection has thrown the EU in. Now, intimidated by the popular "NO" but unsure or disagreed about what it means, everyone is suddenly prevaricating and hedging bets, pushing difficult decisions forward and using the popular rejection as an excuse to forego the common commitments that have made the EU what it is.

This new situation threatens to stifle EU co-operation, not to mention pre-empting the necessary integration of and support to the countries of East Central Europe - jettisoning a fourty-year old tradition of continental solidarity right when it's needed most, right when finally (after a long enough time of wavering as it was) the EU is allowing former Eastern Bloc countries in.

Also, with 25 states in now and more to come, the decision-making process on the basis of old rules can only create prolonged deadlocks on many issues. The Constitution was presented as a way to usher in new, more streamlined rules, but those were resented as the reduction of national power (eg right of veto) they did indeed constitute. Trouble is that the old rules will grind an EU of 25+ to a halt, whereas a unified Europe, intent on strongly going forward in developing its own alternative approaches to international political issues, its own third way of alternative answers to the political and economic questions of our time, is needed as acutely as ever.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 01:15 pm
Nimh,

I agree with you on all of that, but don't think you or other Europeans should be daunted by the difficulties before you now. Frankly the ascent of the EU from the Coal and Steel community to a growing union of 25 nations has been a most remarkable thing - without precedent. Moreover the pace at which unification and expansion has proceeded has beaten reasonable expectations by a wide margin. There should be no surprise that there will be a few setbacks due to the occasionally contradictory hopes, ecpectations (along with a few illusions) of the new members in the East and the more settled and prosperous original oines in the West.

All we needed to do the job with a much more homogenious population was 70 years of bickering followed by a bloody civil war. Surely you will do better. than that
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 01:18 pm
So we'll have some time until we start the civil here Laughing
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 10 Jun, 2005 01:22 pm
Well if it starts tomorrow, you will still be at least 40 years ahead of us. Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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