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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 7 Jun, 2005 09:08 pm
I've always admired Blair for his intelligence and wit. The only mistake he's made as far as I can see is his support of the Bush Doctrine to attack Iraq. That's a rather big mistake for such a smart man/politician.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 7 Jun, 2005 11:49 pm
Lash wrote:
However, you should know that Blair is considerably more popular in the states than he is on Fleet Street--and in other British environs.


Quote:
Kate Hoey, the former sports minister, claimed: "There is no doubt about it, the 'Blair factor' was very, very big in most constituencies. The Prime Minister is not popular."
source: 'Telegraph': Who wants to be a Blairite now?

Quote:
Labour loyalists joined forces with rebels last night, turning on Tony Blair and demanding his resignation within months to make way for Gordon Brown to become Prime Minister.
...
For the first time, MPs usually supportive of the Prime Minister and his policies called for an "orderly transition" of power to the Chancellor and warned that Mr Blair had "had his day".
source again the conservative 'Telegraph': It's time to go, Blairite MPs warn wounded PM
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 03:32 am
I agree with that ci

Blair will go into history as one of the greatest British pms. That might produce hoots of derision from many here...we will see.

The Labour government has introduced many innovative schemes, not all of them a success admittedly, but on balance I believe Labour to have been far more radical and redistributive than people give them credit.

The economy has been handled well (even with retrospect keeping us out of the euro, although I was in favour of joining) and this plus much needed investment in public services has succeeded in building a fairer society without scaring the money men.

The blot on Blair's copybook is undoubtedly Iraq. But I think in retirement and when he's clear of any indictment for war crimes, he will say I had no choice.

If Blair had gone with France Germany and Russia against the US, it would have written off our relationship with America possibly for good. And it would not have stopped the invasion of Iraq, which was to secure energy supplies, something Britain needs to do as much as the US.

On the other hand if Saddam was overthrown, and Iraq joyfully transformed into a pro western yet Muslim democracy, then Bush and Blair would be now feted as heros. (This was the gamble Blair took imo, and lost).
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 07:49 am
On the Iraq issue Blair had no opposition - the Tories were even more in favor, starting with Howard.

Meanwhile, on the French front, Hubert Védrine, former foreign minister, sounds increasingly like Angela Merkel in his veiled references to Turkey's application:
____________________________________________________________

"..Il faut mettre un terme à une autre source d'inquiétude : l'élargissement sans fin. L'Europe est géographique autant que politique. Elle doit avoir des limites. Il faut l'assumer. .."
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3232,36-659552,0.html
____________________________________________________________

"We must put an end to another source of worry - the perpetual expansion. Europe is geographical as well as political and must have limits - let's face it." [from today's Le Monde; my translation]
____________________________________________________________

Anybody here has any idea whether the new Pope's frequent exhortations to Europe to assume its "Christian identity" - specifically in keeping Turkey out - had much influence among Catholics?

Certainly at the US end Turkey's refusal to let bases on its territory be used for the Iraq troop deployment helped stop the decades-long pressure on the EU to admit that country - which first applied in 1959, and still seems intent on joining in spite of getting rebuffed for half a century!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 08:56 am
I suspect the Pope's exhortations had more to do with secularism in "Christian" Europe than the distant prospect of Turkish membership in the EU.

I believe economic factors will force the continental powers to face the question of the sustainability of their social welfare systems independently of considerations of the structure of the EU. I believe this, in the long run, will help advocates of the union, but time will be required for this to materialize.

I believe the next few years will be focused on the assimilation of the new members to the now 25 state union. The Constitutional process itself somewhat submerged these issues, and, now that it is quite dead, the different national perspectives on contemporary issues will likely become more prominent.

All things considered that is not a particularly bad outcome for those who seek a United Europe. The original members were attempting to "lock in" features in the new Union Constitution that they will likely be unable to sustain individually or together. Had the Constitution been approved, the ultimate failure would have been blamed on the Union, instead of their own unrealistic expectations. Now they will have to face the economic facts individually.
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 09:38 am
George - very true as to economics. Pope Benedict however has been somewhat more explicit about proposed EU members >
__________________________________________________________

Recently on two separate occasions, Cd. Ratzinger publicly cautioned Europe against admitting Islamic Turkey to the European Union and wrote to bishops around the world justifying that stand:

"The roots that have formed Europe, that have permitted the formation of this continent, are those of Christianity. Turkey has always represented another continent, in permanent contrast with Europe. There were the [old Ottoman Empire] wars against the Byzantine Empire, the fall of Constantinople, the Balkan wars, and the threat against Vienna and Austria. It would be an error to equate the two continents…Turkey is founded upon Islam…Thus the entry of Turkey into the EU would be anti-historical."

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2071
_____________________________________________________________

> and his voice is heard in Europe (and elsewhere), and not only by Catholics.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 09:57 am
From the BBC:


Barroso survives confidence vote
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has survived a no-confidence vote over a holiday he took on a Greek billionaire's yacht.
The censure motion launched by Eurosceptic MEPs was rejected in the European Parliament by 589 votes to 35, with 35 abstentions.

The Eurosceptics had claimed Mr Barroso's yacht trip revealed a possible conflict of interest.

Mr Barroso condemned the censure motion as "gutter politics".

He said it was a media stunt aimed at undermining EU institutions, and launched ahead of the public referendums on the European Constitution in France and the Netherlands.

The 77 Eurosceptic MEPs said that a company owned by Mr Barroso's friend, the shipping magnate Spiros Latsis, had won commission approval for a 10m-euro (£6.9m) state aid package following the holiday.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:14 am
Helen,

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Interesting to speculate how these issues might play in Benedict's mind along with his ambitionss to reconnect with the Orthodox World.

However I don't agree with his judgement about the potential impact of Turkey's admission on the Christian character of Europe. It is nearly gone - replaced by secular indifference and occasional hostility. A bit of cultural competition might not hurt.

Odd isn't it that in the 19th century Turkey was "The Sick Man of Europe" - I guess they were European then. The Ottomans were brought down by centuries of conflict - in the east with Russia, and in the West with the Hapsburgs, and later the French and the British. Now the remnants of empire are rising up, demanding that the piper be paid and Europe pretends they aren't there and that they themselves didn't sow the seeds of this discord.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:21 am
No blacks need apply. ;((
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:25 am
I've never heard the expression "The Sick Man of Europe" before, our (history) books quote this as "The sick man of the Bosposrus", referring to reports in European newspapers from 1908, which called Sultan Sultan Abdul Hamid II such.
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:30 am
Walter - the expression was common (in English) around the time of the Crimean War and earlier in the 19th century; recall that Turkey still held European territories in the Balkans.

Cicerone - this attempt to introduce racism won't fly; the Ukrainians and the Croats are Slavic, i.e. not at all dark let alone "black"(?!) and they find themselves in the identical position as the Turks:
____________________________________________________________

Bulgaria and Romania, due to join in 2007, are so close to membership that they will probably get in no matter what happens with the constitution. But the treaty's rejection would scuttle talks with Turkey and Croatia, which are due to start this year, and force Ukraine and countries in the western Balkans to postpone their membership ambitions.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050501faessay84309-p30/charles-grant/what-if-the-british-vote-no.html
__________________________________________
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:35 am
HofT, Not talking about racial bigotry, but religious bigotry. Sorry I didn't make my comment clear.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:37 am
HofT wrote:
Walter - the expression was common (in English) around the time of the Crimean War and earlier in the 19th century; recall that Turkey still held European territories in the Balkans.


Right, I have to correct myself: Nicholas I of Russia called Turkey 'Sick man of Europe' first while 'Sick man of the Bosporus' refered to Sultan Abdul Hamid II Embarrassed
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:53 am
Don't worry about it, Walter! The great Moltke had the exact same problem you just did while advising an earlier Sultan in a battle against the Egyptians:

Die Stellung des türkischen Heeres war unklug gewählt und ohne Rückzugslinie."
________________________________________

[The position chosen by the Turkish army was unfortunate, allowing for no line of retreat]
http://www.vho.org/D/Staatsbriefe/Fontane9_9.html

Some guys never learn <G>
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 12:07 pm
Cicerone - factually the comments of Pope Benedict are unassailable; the history of Europe is exactly as he describes it.

Nor is it bigotry for the Pope to speak in support of Christianity; he has spoken often enough for tolerance and respect for other faiths. Btw, the Foreign Affairs article is from the latest issue (May/June 2005) but written by somebody who thought only the UK would vote against the "constitution". One less thing for Blair to worry about.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 12:15 pm
I highly recommend reading the (monthly) EU Newsletter!
(Published by the Federal Trust, a Uk based registered charity which has no political allegiance. It provides updates on the state of ratification in individual European Union states. This includes articles discussing the outcome and impact of EU constitution referendums and reports on the climate of opinion in different nations. All issues from 2003 to date can be accessed; the articles are in pdf format.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 12:21 pm
HofT, I see no problem with anybody speaking for their religion, but what Benedict did was to talk against Turkey and the Muslim religion. I see a distinct difference.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 12:39 pm
A quick Google search with the phrase "The Sick man of Europe"gets 2.5 million hits with numerous references to history texts and articles going back a century. At least the first two pages were all references to the Ottoman Empire. I suspect the others are too.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 01:03 pm
I've already acknowleged that, George: it was indeed Nicholas I of Russia who phrased this the first time:
Quote:
Czar Nicholas I of Russia commented on the Ottoman Empire in 1853: "We have on our hands a sick man, a very sick man."
[as quoted in various offline and a couple of online sources; here from 'Handbuch der Orientalistik'.]
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Jun, 2005 01:22 pm
One of the reasons why I think the way I do about Pope Benedict and Turkey.
Assyrian International News Agency
Turkey Braces Itself for Benedict's Papacy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Many Turks fear forces that want to block their nation's entry to the European Union may find a powerful new champion: Pope Benedict XVI.

"Anti-Turkish pope," said the headline of the Cumhuriyet newspaper on Wednesday, the day after Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's selection as pontiff.

"He was Turkey's last choice," said the newspaper Radikal.

The consternation stems largely from comments Benedict made in his previous role as the Vatican's doctrine chief on the nature of multiculturalism and specifically about Turkey's European aspirations. "Multiculturalism," he said, amounts to "fleeing from what is one's own."

And in an interview last year with the French magazine Le Figaro, he suggested that Turkey's bid to join the Europe Union conflicted with Europe's Christian roots. "Turkey has always represented a different continent, in permanent contrast to Europe," he was quoted as saying.

For many people in Turkey, which has staked its future on being part of a religiously diverse Europe, Ratzinger's selection seemed like a dire setback.

Many Turks expressed deep concern that Benedict XVI could roll back work at bridging centuries of tensions between Islam and the West, which at times saw Muslim Turkish armies battling the Christian soldiers of Europe.

"It would undoubtedly be bad news for Turkey for Cardinal Ratzinger to continue his views as Pope Benedict XVI," wrote columnist Selcuk Gultasli in the Zaman newspaper. "At a time when opposition to Turkey's EU membership in France, Austria, Denmark and even the Netherlands is on the rise mixed with racism, it would be a wrong message."

Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whose party has its roots in political Islam, said that as pope, Benedict would likely temper his views.

"They were his own personal opinions. His statements from now on will be different," Erdogan said before leaving to visit Turkish peacekeepers in Afghanistan. "Authority requires responsibility. ... It is statements that will come from now on that are important."

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul also dismissed concerns that the pope would be anti-Turkish.

"I think that it is wrong to assess the pope in this way," he said.

"Sometimes statements that people give can be reflected in ways that exceed their intentions," he said, adding that he along with Erdogan and President Ahmet Necdet Sezer had congratulated the pope.

Others said that if Benedict presses a strongly conservative agenda he could end up alienating his flock.

"It's a matter of interest for all Europeans, not only for Turks ... that he should mellow his viewpoints, not only on religion but on way of life," said Seyfi Tashan, director of the private Foreign Policy Institute of Ankara.

"I don't believe that religion will be able to change the modern aspirations of people, which are secular aspirations," Tashan added. "If he goes against it too much, you remember why Protestantism came about in Europe, why there were so many fights? It was against the Catholic hardline Christians."

By Louis Miexler
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