FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

georgeob1 wrote:

I am more inclined to bet on the people than the self-absorbed politicians.

We, here in Germany (plus a couple of more [European] countries) have the so-called 'parliamentary democracy'.

"The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority." (Art. 1:1 of the Basic Law) "

(1) The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state. (2) All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs. (3) Legislation is subject to the constitutional order; the executive and the judiciary are bound by law and justice." (Art. 20: 1, 2 and 3 of the Basic Law)

That means (in short), the elected parliament decides.
(One of the reasons we got it: according to Hitler, parliamentary democracy undermined the natural selection of ruling elites and was "nothing other than the systematic cultivation of human failure." [source: Britannica] )

Do you think, George, we should change our system?

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Walter,

Your system of government is not particularly different from ours and I am not inclined to advise you on it.

However, the enactment of the constitution of a new governing entity (in this case the EU) - in short a new basic law - should not, in my opinion, be a matter for the legislature. It should be referred to the people in a plebiscite.

In a democracy the consent of the people is the source of power. The German people have consented to governance by the various organs of the States and the Federal Government. However they did not directly express their consent to governance at the hands of the EU. Whether in German law the consent given to the Federal government is considered transferable at the sole discretion of the Federal government is a subject about which I am not well enough informed to debate. I certainly would never consent to such a thing in my country.

Here's a question for you. Had there been a direct vote in Germany on the new EU constitution, would it have been approved?

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Thomas wrote:

nimh wrote:
Heh, this poll result's funny.

It is -- but the right vote is the right vote, no matter who casts it.

Oh, I'd take Rouvoet or Marijnissen over Bos, Balkenende or Zalm any day too. Funny how the best liked / most respected politicians are leaders of small parties on the far fringes. Thats something specific to the Dutch situation now, I think.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Had there been a direct vote in Germany on the new EU constitution, would it have been approved?

No, not the way how people were informed/wanted to be informed.

I'm rather sure, however, we wouldn't have got many other laws in Germany, most EU-laws, treaties etc if that was deided by a referendum.

NB: according to our basic law we just have referenda on federal level re changing the territories of states, here: Southwestern states and Berlin<>Brandenburg.

I kind of agree that people should get more power, and I'm quite a follower of the idea of basics democracy.
But, in my opinion, this just works fine on local or perhaps regional level, with things like the new children playground or maybe the question, if the state should buy a castle (which the conservatives do in Hessia, but don't want a referendum for that).

Some said correctly before that only a few politicans know exactly what the 'EU-constitution' is all about. How long would it take, to make nearly 70 million to experts?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

We, here in Germany (plus a couple of more [European] countries) have the so-called 'parliamentary democracy'.

[..] That means (in short), the elected parliament decides.

[..] Do you think, George, we should change our system?

We have a parliamentary democracy too, but the view that it shouldn't necessarily always be up the parliament to make the final decision has been seeping through for a number of years now. The Labour Party held a primary under its members to choose its new leader and other parties are planning to follow suit; new legislation on direct elections of mayors was scuttled only at the very last moment (causing that government crisis a few months ago); and of course we now just had this referendum, which followed on several first local referendums.

And this one seems to have whetted the appetite (below translated from de Volkskrant):

Quote:

It was a spectacular comeback for the referendum this week: the Dutch politicians cheered about the high turnout and the vivid discussion about the normally so abstract "Europe". After this experience, many said, the citizen should no longer be denied the possibility to have his say directly.

According to a poll by the University Twente, 83 percent of the Dutch want a referendum more often. Vice Prime Minister Zalm said that he was "converted somewhat" now. Even the declared opponents of the Christian Union will now discuss the referendum again in their party.

On the evening of the results, Paul Witteman tempted the party leaders into already naming possible subjects: [nuclear power plant] Borssele, pay-as-you-go traffic charges, the health service system and the tax deduction that allows homeowners to deduct the interest on their mortgage.

The Green Left on the day of the EU-referendum announced it would propose a law to introduce a binding [rather than merely consultative] referendum, which would also allow for legislation to be corrected afterwards. "A good means to prevent a crisis of trust between citizen and politics", the party submits. The Labour Party and the Socialist Party joined the call. Since the party congress of the [right-wing liberal] VVD recently and newly declared its support for a referendum [as well], there should now be a parliamentary majority for it, they hope.

[..] The Christian-Democrats however remain sceptic about the referendum. "We are proponents of the representative democracy", says parliamentary leader Maxime Verhagen. During the parliamentary debate last Thursday he called it illusory to think that referenda can bridge the chasm between citizens and politics.

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Walter - a number of German constitutional experts agree with GeorgeOB's view on referenda, i.e. disagree with you that there's any need to "change the system" in order to have one. They base their opinion on the Grundgesetz, which you also quote. Partial list of said constitutional experts follows:
_________________________________________________________

Prof. Hans Herbert von Arnim, Deutsche Hochschule für Verwaltungswissenschaften Speyer
Prof. Manfred Baldus, Universität Erfurt
Prof. Hermann-Josef Blanke, Universität Erfurt
Prof. Albert Bleckmann, Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität Münster
Prof. Armin von Bogdandy, Max-Planck-Institut für ausländisches öffentliches Recht undVölkerrecht, Heidelberg
Prof. Harald Bogs, Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
Prof. Michael Bothe, Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität Frankfurt
Prof. Erhard Denninger, Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität Frankfurt
Prof. Michael Fehling, Bucerius Law School, Hochschule für Rechtswissenschaft Hamburg
Prof. Werner Frotscher, Philipps-Universität Marburg
Prof. Ulrich M. Gassner, Universität Augsburg
Prof. Volkmar Götz, Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
Prof. Rolf Gröschner, Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
Prof. Thomas Groß, Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen
Prof. Christoph Gusy, Universität Bielefeld,
Prof. Martina Haedrich, Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
Prof. Erik Volkmar Heyen, Ernst-Moritz-Arndt-Universität Greifswald
Prof. Peter M. Huber, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Prof. Jörn Ipsen, Universität Osnabrück
Prof. Matthias Jestaedt, Friedrich-Alexander-Universität Erlangen
Prof. Wolfgang Kahl, Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen
Prof. Karl Matthias Meessen, Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
Prof. Jürgen Meyer, Delegierter des Deutschen Bundestages im europäischen Verfassungs-konvent
Prof. Karl-Ulrich Meyn, Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena
Prof. Ingolf Pernice, Humboldt-Universität Berlin
Prof. Ute Sacksofsky, Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität Frankfurt
Prof. Hans-Peter Schneider, Universität Hannover
Prof. Otfried Seewald, Universität Passau
Prof. Gerd Seidel, Humboldt-Universität Berlin
Prof. Christian Starck, Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
Prof. Michael Stolleis, Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität Frankfurt
Prof. Uwe Volkmann, Johannes-Gutenberg-Universität Mainz
Prof. Heinrich Wilms, Universität Konstanz
Prof. Heinrich Amadeus Wolff, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
____________________________________________________________

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:ad-k6DhiDqcJ:mehr-demokratie.de/aufruf_referendum_eu-verfassung.pdf+grundgesetz+referendum+Volkssouver%C3%A4nit%C3%A4t&hl=en
____________________________________________________________

Kindly note the list includes the Bundestag's own expert delegate to the European Constitution drafting committee (in bold). Possibly all these constitutional experts are wrong and your reading of the Grundgesetz is the correct one, but their opinion might at least be noted in passing Smile

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Some said correctly before that only a few politicans know exactly what the 'EU-constitution' is all about. How long would it take, to make nearly 70 million to experts?

Probably a long time. However, considering the long -term significance of the empowerment of a new supra-national government, it might be far more dangerous to simply let the legislature (which didn't understand the new document much better than the 70 million) act for the people in this question. Legitimacy is difficult to restore, once it is lost. (aside: Isn't the population of Germany well over 80 million now?).

If the constitutional document was too complex, long, ambiguus, and self-contradictory to be understood, then perhaps it wasn't much of a constitution at all.

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Watch it Walter ! Nimh is on my side on this one and - marvel of marvels - Helen is with him. I am in good company indeed !

By the way -- I notice that Nimh, who is characteristically cheerful, unflappable and easy-going, has become a bit ... testy and irritable lately. Is this the influence of Hungarian melancholy?

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I agree with what is said in that country, HofT.

Quote:

Die Unterzeichnenden fordern alle Abgeordneten des Deutschen Bundestags, die Mitglieder des Bundesrates und die Bundesregierung auf, sich für ein Referendum über die europäischeVerfassung in Deutschland einzusetzen und die dafür notwendigen rechtlichen Voraussetzungen zu schaffen.

...to create the legal conditions necessary for it

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georgeob1 wrote:

Watch it Walter ! Nimh is on my side on this one and - marvel of marvels - Helen is with him. I am in good company indeed !

I would shut down my computer, if Helen hadn't a different to mine [here].

nimh grew up
a) in a smaller country
with
b) a tradition with referenda.

What I really would like, would be a situation like in Switzerland.

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Walter - all the clause you quote means (always according to the constitutional experts) that the government simply has to call a referendum. Nothing else is required, since in their view the "sovereignty of the people" expressed in "voting" is already guaranteed in the Grundgesetz.

It's getting late where I am, but if you wish I will look up the relevant clauses (starting with #20) of the Grundgesetz - assuming the thread will suffer an onslaught of German legalese, which I doubt <G>

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I know the articles, HofT (Art 20 and 118/118a).

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Thanks Walter - I had no doubt you knew the articles. The whole thread thanks you for sparing them the German legalese!

Speaking of the Swiss referendum, in exchange for abolishing passport controls for Schengen countries ONLY, Switzerland gained access to the Schengen database of illegal aliens, asylum seekers who already filed claims in other countries, assorted temporary residents in Europe with outstanding arrest warrants and other such individuals. All in all it was a good deal for the Swiss, viewed as a quid pro quo; illegal Icelanders or Norwegians aren't a major threat on the radar, evidently.

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This is a battle of the Titans !

I would never willingly engage in a research duel with either of these cranky, but very interesting and agreeable people.

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<Just to inform you, HofT: I heard and studied 'International Law' and 'Constitutional Law' under von Münch. And he was quoted in ANY commentary and with ANY article ..... as different opinion here: von Münch. [Which might have been the reason, he later became Minister for Justice (for the FDP) in Hamburg. Laughing

]>

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George - I wouldn't dream of fighting Walter, to whom I'm very greatly indebted for (among many other things) diligently checking my Clausewitz translations from the original into English; it's a very densely written text and Walter's advice has been invaluable.

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georgeob1 wrote:

cranky, but very interesting and agreeable people.

Could you please verify, who is what? Laughing

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Some questions are better left unasked, Walter!

Here however is the answer to a previous question on how the German people would vote:

"Demnach würden 39 Prozent der Deutschen gegen die EU-Verfassung stimmen und nur 37 Prozent dafür."
http://www.finanzen.net/news/news_detail.asp?NewsNr=312489

__________________________________________

As per opinion poll quoted in Finanzen (a serious magazine) 39% are against and 37% are in favor, with the rest undecided.

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You are cranky: Helen is interesting - I am agreeable. Laughing

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