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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 09:45 am
By definition it does, Walter, since non-EU members like Switzerland can join it....

Distress among the European left seems to be reaching epidemic proportions if you, too, have started to overlook the obvious <G>
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 09:50 am
HofT wrote:
By definition it does, Walter, since non-EU members like Switzerland can join it....

Norway and Iceland belong to the founding members of the Schengen treaty, both non-Eu-countries.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 10:02 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
HofT wrote:
By definition it does, Walter, since non-EU members like Switzerland can join it....

Norway and Iceland belong to the founding members of the Schengen treaty, both non-Eu-countries.


HofT wrote:

Distress among the European left seems to be reaching epidemic proportions if you, too, have started to overlook the obvious <G>


Well, well:

HofT wrote:
Walter - clarification on your post ref. Swiss referendum: the Swiss approved no "EU-wide" passport-free zone, only "Schengen" zone. As you know that's much more limited than EU as a whole.


Never said different:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Although Switzerland is not an EU member, it's quite interesting that they approved today joining the European passport-free zone, abolishing checks on the country's border by 2007.
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 10:23 am
HofT wrote:
If NIMH DID speak to EU conservatives (as I, for one, do) then he would KNOW what was just posted about the question in the Bundestag.

That leaves 2 possibilities:
(1) He genuinely doesn't know what the Euro fluff is about - ergo he never speaks to conservatives, or even reads about what they're actually doing

I know THAT there is a furore building up about the Euro - I do read the reports, thank you - but I personally dont see what the furore is ABOUT, which is a comment on the (lack of) consistency of the argument of the conservatives in question - not an expression of ignorance about it.

As for the "uncalled-for personal remarks", as soon as you stop lacing your every post with some kind of unnecessary personal put-down, you'll find that you'll stop being called on it, as well.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 11:15 am
I must admit that the Swiss referendum snuck up on me, and I have to run to catch up with what were in the Shannon and Dublin discussions. The Swiss, as perceived in the US, are fiercely neutral, so I assumed that any show of tilting towards the EU would be opposed. But, as presented, the proposals being considered seemed mundane administrative details.
The US press, if they cover this story at all, will report that 55% of voters voted in favor. I wonder if, given yalls previous discussions about class and regions, there is anything more to the story. Thank you. -rjb-

PS. Can yall get over the petty bickering and name calling?
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 11:24 am
Just got back fom a 350 mile round trip, so please excuse any spelling mistakes.
Listening to an interesting programme on the radio whilst driving..........apparently Jack Straw is going to talk about the EU "Non and Nee" tomorrow in the Commons. It is reckoned that he wont give any clues away as to Britains forthcoming Referendum, and will probably say that full discussions will take place as to the future of the Constitution in a couple of weeks, when the various leaders have their big meeting.
One of his colleagues (Steven Byers) says that Straw would LOVE to say that the ratification process is dead and buried, but cant at this stage.
This is because Chirac is just waiting for Britain to make such a statement, as he can then cite the Brits as the bad guys in all of this, and give us the blame for bringing the process to an end.
Just wait for the very carefully worded statement from Straw tomorrow.

Another item of interest was the meeting that Chirac and Shroeder have scheduled. Apparently, Chirac was trying to get ALL founder members to attend the meeting, and attempt to thrash out a "back door" method of continuing with the ratification. This would then be presented as almost a "fait accompli" at the main meeting in a fortnight.
The Dutch Prime Minister told Chirac in no uncertain terms that he would not attend, and thereby sent a clear signal that he would have nothing to do with any secret deals that Chirac and Shroeder attempt to cook up.

The consensus seems to be that Chirac and Shroeder are becoming more isolated by the day.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 11:30 am
realjohnboy wrote:
I must admit that the Swiss referendum snuck up on me, and I have to run to catch up with what were in the Shannon and Dublin discussions. The Swiss, as perceived in the US, are fiercely neutral, so I assumed that any show of tilting towards the EU would be opposed. But, as presented, the proposals being considered seemed mundane administrative details.


This whole thing makes me smile a bit, as I must cross the Swiss Frontier about twenty times a year, and have been doing so for about fifteen years.
That makes approx 300 crossings, and only ONCE have I actually been asked to show my Passport.
On all other occasions, I have been simply waved through.
I dont think any new agreement will make that much difference.
The only efficient border control to speak of on mainland Europe (purely from my own experience) seems to be Germany.....and even then I have been waved through at least 50% of the time.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 12:04 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:
The only efficient border control to speak of on mainland Europe (purely from my own experience) seems to be Germany.....and even then I have been waved through at least 50% of the time.


Until now, I've been controlled 100% on my way from Germany to the UK, and vice versa (that's by plane, on airports).

And before Schengen, there was a saying here: "Cross the borders together with Walter, if you want to be controlled." :wink:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 12:28 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:
... This is because Chirac is just waiting for Britain to make such a statement, as he can then cite the Brits as the bad guys in all of this, and give us the blame for bringing the process to an end.
Just wait for the very carefully worded statement from Straw tomorrow.

Another item of interest was the meeting that Chirac and Shroeder have scheduled. Apparently, Chirac was trying to get ALL founder members to attend the meeting, and attempt to thrash out a "back door" method of continuing with the ratification. This would then be presented as almost a "fait accompli" at the main meeting in a fortnight.
The Dutch Prime Minister told Chirac in no uncertain terms that he would not attend, and thereby sent a clear signal that he would have nothing to do with any secret deals that Chirac and Shroeder attempt to cook up.

The consensus seems to be that Chirac and Shroeder are becoming more isolated by the day.


More isolated and less and less relevant. Neither will likely be a part of the political scene when these issues are resolved or even next addressed. However Straw's caution is well-advised. Political "leaders" such as Chirac will fight hard to preserve their public illusions and smokescreens.

I find Chirac, nominally a conservative, quite remarkable. He not only resists the obviously needed reform of over-regulated French labor markets (unlike Schroeder, who is trying to do this) he even blames the unseen forces of "Anglo Saxon" culture and economic resilience for the public rejection of the Constitution the development of which He and his compatiot Giscard d'Estang thorughly dominated. In my eyes this appears to be among the worst examples of unprincipled political opportunism in the last half century. (Not to mention gratuitous insults to nations that have been France's greatest benefactors).

On a related subject - the recent fluctuations in the Euro are themselves of little lasting significance. The underlying economic factors will, in the long run, determine its value, despite the fact that the rejection of the new Constitution has shaken the confidence of many observers of this scene. However the ridiculous spectacle of the French political leadership denying that any reform of their unsustainable welfare system is required and, worse, this blaming of the rejection of the constitution on unseen Anglo Saxon reformist influences, noted above, puts the coming economic crisis in sharp relief.

Continental Europe has the time, the wealth, and the ability to adapt to current economic and social realities. However, if they continue to put so much energy into distractions and blame shifting, they will lose those advantages and perhaps one day find themselves armed only with necessity.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 12:41 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Continental Europe has the time, the wealth, and the ability to adapt to current economic and social realities. However, if they continue to put so much energy into distractions and blame shifting, they will lose those advantages and perhaps one day find themselves armed only with necessity.

A very anglo-saxon thing of you to say -- you're such a bad influence on us, George!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 12:56 pm
It is even hard for me to say, Thomas. I hear the voices of Irish ancestors calling me when I do. ( they preferred the continental varieties of Anglo Saxons to the Island one !)
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 01:41 pm
Sorry for the delay in replying.....I've been scrubbing the blue Wode off my face after a hard day of pillaging the Celts.
Chirac is very clever at "tapping in" to the Anglo Saxon theme. He knows that if there is one thing that might possibly unite his people, it is the fear that Anglo Saxonism may prevail in Europe.
It isnt Anglo Saxon at all, and he knows it. He should have used the term "free market economy", which just happens to have been adopted by Britain, among others.
They now have a new Prime Minister, who has never been elected by the people, to ANY position of power, not even a Village Council (how does that work, by the way, in a so called Democracy?)
He is a true French Philosopher/poet politician, and exactly the type of aloof "aristocracy" that the French people were protesting against.
This means that the French people will be casting a very cynical eye in his direction, and he will have to deliver.
IF they DO go along the route of protectionism (as they have declared), and create jobs with no real regard for market forces, they will soon find that their goods will not be competetively priced and subsequently experience drastic trade deficits.
On the other hand, if they follow us Anglo Saxons and try to get their house in order by sorting out the looming pensions problem, cutting back on public spending and moving towards more flexible working conditions, they will immediately have massive demonstrations by the Unions, and we will no doubt experience the blockading of Calais once again.
Either way, I see France having MAJOR unrest for quite a while.

Lump that together with the immense scale of the problems in Germany, the fast downward spiral of Italy at this time, and the emergence of cheap products from China and other developing countries.....who knows how the hell it will all end up?

I am just very thankful that we stayed out of the Euro, and opted out of the various treaties that imposed restrictions on Employers (limiting the working week etc).....because at the moment, Britain can use interest rates as one tool of inflationary control, and encourage overseas investment by having attractive conditions for Employers.
Just one example is the fact that we now produce many, many Peugot cars here. Now, for the benefit of anyone who doesnt know...Peugeot is a French car manufacturer, and it wasnt so long ago that Britain would have been the LAST place that they would have built a factory.
But....business is business, and the Peugeot bosses have obviously worked out that we now offer a more attractive environment for their investment.
Our British people have jobs, building French cars....maybe that's the sort of "Anglo Saxon" model that Chirac dislikes.. ie it doesnt suit the interests of the French.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 02:10 pm
I agree.

If things go bad you can always join NAFTA - even the Irish among us will welcome you.

Two surprises await Irish Americans on their first visits to the "old country".

1. They consider us Americans, not Irish.
2. They have come to rather like the English.

Interesting how immigration freezes attitudes and preserves images of the past. (I fixed item #1 by getting an Irish passport. Now I am a good European! -- well fairly good Cool )
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 03:55 pm
Lord Ellpus' quote, "I am just very thankful that we stayed out of the Euro, and opted out of the various treaties that imposed restrictions on Employers (limiting the working week etc).....because at the moment, Britain can use interest rates as one tool of inflationary control, and encourage overseas investment by having attractive conditions for Employers."

Spot on, LE! I agree with you 100 percent; Brits should be thankful you opted out of the Euro, and the use of interest rates as one tool of inflationary control. I've often wondered why many of the other countries that agreed to the Euro didn't understand these concepts.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 05:47 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

2. They have come to rather like the English.


Personally, I've never had any problem with making Irish friends. I think the history between our two sets of Politicians and warmongers has been bloody awful, but the ordinary people of both Countries get along very well together.
I was over there for a wedding not so long ago (Cobh, near Cork) and found the locals to be the friendliest, most hospitable people I have ever met.
One thing I love about the Irish (apart from their beautiful women) is the fact that however successful or rich they are, they always have their feet on the ground.
I consider them to be very like the Australians, laid back with a great sense of humour, both are terrible at Cricket, but could drink me under the table any day of the week.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 06:52 pm
My mother and her family are from Youghl and Ardmore, just east of Cobh. Very agreeable people. I do like the manner of speech there and in Kerry particularly. I think that having the recent memory of moderate poverty helps one a good deal in keeping a good foothold when good times and prosperity follow. It generally takes a couple of comfortable generations to produce an inert, useless fool.

About half of the European population of Australia were Irish.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 5 Jun, 2005 07:08 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:
... One thing I love about the Irish (apart from their beautiful women) is the fact that however successful or rich they are, they always have their feet on the ground.
I consider them to be very like the Australians, laid back with a great sense of humour, both are terrible at Cricket, but could drink me under the table any day of the week.


Haven't a clue about Cricket (other than as applied to darts, at which I'm considered to be pretty damned good - I can do 8-dart outs with some regularity), but when it comes to Draught, Gin, and Whiskey, I stand ready to defend the reputation of my Irish forebearers at any time, in any pub.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 6 Jun, 2005 04:00 am
Heh, this poll result's funny. From just after the referendum:

Quote:
Which persons have best expressed what you think yourself? (up to 3 answers possible)

Those who voted "yes":
1. Wouter Bos [opposition and Labour Party leader]
2. Jan-Peter Balkenende [Prime Minister, Christian-Democrat]
3. Joschka Fischer [German minister of Foreign Affairs, Green]
4. Gerrit Zalm [Minister of Finance, Right-wing liberal]

Those who voted "no":
1. Andre Rouvoet [Leader of opposition Christian Union (now polling 4%)]
2. Jan Marijnissen [Leader of opposition Socialist Party (now polling 12%)]
3. Geert Wilders [One-man, far-right parliamentary party (now polling 4%)]
4. Jan Mulder [columnist, TV personality, former soccer player]
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 6 Jun, 2005 04:19 am
nimh wrote:
Heh, this poll result's funny.

It is -- but the right vote is the right vote, no matter who casts it.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 6 Jun, 2005 04:36 am
Clearly it is yet another indication that the issue, as perceived, in this case by the French & Dutch people, cuts across the conventional political party platforms & identity. Two possible explanations here - 1. The people are confused and wrong (the Chirac view); 2, The political parties are not focused on deeper issues that concern the public more than do those they promote. I am more inclined to bet on the people than the self-absorbed politicians.
0 Replies
 
 

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