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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 09:40 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
george, You may be the winner in your won eyes about "threshhold of indignation," but that's it, buddy.


I think you misunderstood and overreacted here. It was IRONY !!!

I am the winner because I still read Setanta's posts with an open mind, and enjoy the good stuff I find there.

Not a bad way to view things: perhaps you should try it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 09:43 am
I never thought I would ever say this, but thank God for the French working class! Especially for their apparently widespread misunderstanding that the constitution would have increased the standing of what they call neoliberalism in Europe when in fact it would have done the opposite.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 09:49 am
george, It's also obvious because Set still reads your posts to respond! That's not IRONY!
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 10:46 am
Tales of the surreal ... if Holland does end up voting "nee" - blame the Eurovision songfestival ... (mind you, story is a week old)

Quote:
Dutch No looks irreversible

23.05.2005 - 06:18 CET | By Mark Beunderman

EUOBSERVER / AMSTERDAM - Less than two weeks before the Dutch referendum on the EU Constitution, pollsters see a rejection of the treaty as irreversible, with a row over the Eurovision song contest apparently boosting the "no" camp.

Over the weekend, three new polls indicated a huge leap forward made by the "no" campaign in the run-up to the referendum on 1 June.

"Eastern European fake show"

On top of this, further media rows put the "yes" camp on the defensive over the weekend - with one row focusing on the unusual topic of the Eurovision song contest.

Following the elimination of the Dutch contender Glennis Grace in the semi-final of the contest, Dutch popular media showed their dissatisfaction by blaming the lost race on "Eastern European" countries favoring each other.

The Netherlands' largest newspaper, De Telegraaf, on Saturday (21 May) ran its main front-page story quoting some of the "thousands" of angry reactions by readers.

The headline of the story quotes one reaction, saying that the Netherlands should "never participate again in this Eastern European fake show".

According to the newspaper, "many compatriots" used the occasion of the song festival "to speak out against European unification and the future the EU constitution".

"The elimination of the Netherlands shows again who will have the largest say in Europe in the future", de Telegraaf quoted one reader as saying.

According to the pollster Maurice de Hond, a large majority of the Dutch interpret the Eurovision song contest in a similar political way. In a press release he stated:

"Seventy one percent think that the fact that substantially more Eastern European than Western European countries have reached the [Eurovision] final, is an example of how the power within the EU has shifted to the East of Europe".

World War II ad row

Another row dominating the media over the weekend concerns a television ad by the liberal VVD Member of the European Parliament, Jules Maaten, which was withdrawn just before broadcasting.

The ad showed images of the Holocaust, the Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia in 1995, and the Madrid train bombings of March 11 2004, highlighting the necessity of a "future of peace, security and prosperity" with "one European constitution".

The VVD leadership blocked the airing of the commercial, but Dutch public television obtained the spot and broadcast it anyway.

The "no" camp blamed Mr Maaten for suggesting that a "no" to the constitution would result in a return to war and terror.

Before the spot was vetoed by his party, Mr Maaten had said "with this [the ad] we would like to show that this is not just about anything. Europe was established not just for fun, but in order to bring peace, prosperity and security".

The row fits into a larger pattern of opponents of the constitution hitting hard at the "yes" camp's allegedly inappropriate use of World War II and the Balkan wars as an argument in favour of the EU constitution.

Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende was attacked for explicitly referring to the EU constitution during a commemoration of World War II victims alongside US president Bush on 8 May.
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 11:13 am
Latest poll in Holland (by de Hond) has the tentative rebound of "yes" voters halting after France's "non". At the moment this poll has 59% voting against and 41% in favour.

The major determinant here is that "no"-voters are distinctly more determined to turn out on Wednesday.

Women, older people and people with lower education are particularly likely to vote against (perhaps reconfirming that the perception of the Constitution is of something that will make Europe a more competitive, market-driven place, where only the economically strong - young high-educated men - can expect to reap the benefits?)
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 11:51 am
Evidently Thomas sees the now failed constitution as likely to have further institutionalized anti competitive economic factors in the European system - if I am interpreting him correctly.

This aspect of the European scene interests me. For how long will Europe be able to sustain its current social & economic policies without some form of collapse or upheval? In my view the lack of sufficient investment and productivity growth, the demographic decline already built in to the near term future, the inflexability of labor markets and social welfare systems, combined with the growing competitiveness of the world economy all spell a rough road ahead for Europe if it does not begin to confront these challenges. Europe certainly has the ability to deal with these issues, but perhaps not the political will.

The United States faces these issues too, but to a much lesser degree. For us the salient issue might be our rather dismal balance of payments and trade balance situation. This one is at least mitigated by growing productivity and at least moderate economic growth. Moreover we have at least begun to take some tentative steps to deal with our pension system issues - too early to claim success though.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 12:32 pm
Kudos to the French for their high voter turnout.

Quote:
FRENCH EU VOTE: Turnout reaches 66.24 pct at 7.00 pm
05.29.2005, 03:17 PM

PARIS (AFX) - Nearly two out of three French voters had turned out by 7.00 pm to cast their ballots in the referendum on the EU constitution, the interior ministry said.

The ministry said 66.24 pct of the country's 42 mln eligible voters had already participated in Sunday's referendum, with polls due to close in most of the country at 8.00 pm, and at 10.00 pm in Paris and Lyon.

At midday Sunday, voter turnout stood at 25.08 pct.

In 1992, when France voted by a slim margin to approve the Maastricht treaty that created the common European currency, final voter turnout was 69.7 pct.

The CSA polling institute estimated that final turnout would reach 75 pct, while Ipsos predicted that final participation would be at least 76 pct.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2005/05/29/afx2063244.html


I have to wonder if we could do as well if we voted on a Sunday instead of Tuesdays.
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 12:40 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
This aspect of the European scene interests me. For how long will Europe be able to sustain its current social & economic policies without some form of collapse or upheval? In my view the lack of sufficient investment and productivity growth, the demographic decline already built in to the near term future, the inflexability of labor markets and social welfare systems, combined with the growing competitiveness of the world economy all spell a rough road ahead for Europe if it does not begin to confront these challenges.

Then again, you probably - if you allow me to speculate - have held these beliefs about Europe's prospects for some twenty years at least - years in which Europeans reached ever new unprecedented levels of prosperity.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 12:47 pm
Only partly true. I didn't begin to think of it in this light until about seven years ago after European growth had begun to slow down. I have no wish to see things this way, and take no pleasure in the result.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 12:49 pm
JustWonders wrote:

I have to wonder if we could do as well if we voted on a Sunday instead of Tuesdays.


In most European countries elections, referenda are to hold on Sundays.

I'm not sure, if the day has so much to do with the turnout - e.g. the UK votes on weekdays.

Referenda have different histories: e.g. here in Germany between +90% on local level down to 40% on state level (we don't have them [yet] on federal level*).

*Only regarding the new delimitation of states, where the participation of their inhabitants is asked for by the constitution. (118 GG)
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 01:07 pm
Well, could be a difference in the way the votes are calculated, then. Here, we count all valid votes, divided with the number of people of voting age (including illegal immigrants).
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 01:12 pm
Voter turnout worldwide
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 01:14 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Well, could be a difference in the way the votes are calculated, then. Here, we count all valid votes, divided with the number of people of voting age (including illegal immigrants).


Since illegals can't vote (and no one knows there number, as well), they are of course not within the number of registered voters - here in Germany and most European countries (not sure about "all").

Voter turnout worldwide

edit: link fixed.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 01:29 pm
US is supposed to be number 114 with 48.3 percent voter turnout, but I truly believe this is an over-estimate. Our country has the problem of letting dead people and duplicate voting by one person - in different counties and/or states for national elections.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 02:33 pm
My, my. Yall have sure been busy. Realjohnboy went missing for a spell, but is now back. I spent the last hour reading through yalls comments from the last t.en days and 12 or so pages.
It seems to me that Mr Blair, for different reasons, may be on thin ice,
Mr Schroeder, also. And now Mr Chirac. Is there going to be a big shift in the leadership of Europe in the next year or so?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 02:43 pm
rjbn Nice to see you back. But as to a big shift in leadership of Europe, not a chance. The big three, Germany, France, and Italy will remain the big guns of politics in Europe.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 02:55 pm
Chirac's government (France): Troubled, future in doubt, economy stagnant

Schroeder's government (Germany): Troubled, future in doubt, economy stagnant

Martin's government (Canada): Troubled, future in doubt, economy stagnant

Putin's government (Russia): Troubled, future in doubt, economy stagnant

EU: Troubled, future in doubt, economy stagnant

Anan's UN: Troubled, future in doubt, rife with scandals

Afghanistan: New democratic government

Iraq: New democratic government

Ukraine: New democratic government

Lebanon: New democratic government

Kuwait: Democratic reforms in progress

Saudi Arabia: Democratic reforms in progress


Bush's government (US): Re-elected, economy growing

Howard's government (Australia): Re-elected, economy growing

Blair's government (Great Britain): Re-elected, economy growing






Gee - gotta wonder if there might be more than just coincidence going on there.
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Lash
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 03:04 pm
Weeeeee!

Yep. The Bird speaks sooth. I read an article recently about just that very thing. Bush's (power)stock rises, while Chirac, Blair (sorry Blair), Schroeder, et al have lost cache--and some are expected to lose everything--Jocky (out of a job and in to the prison), and his Germy co-hort (out of office).
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 03:08 pm
Thanks for your short and concise anylysis, timber.

How, do you think, is this related to the EU in totaliter?
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2005 03:54 pm
I havent read this article yet but you gotta give them kudos for thinking up that headline Razz :

What's red and green and in trouble?
0 Replies
 
 

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