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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 02:17 pm
Lord Ellpus, Sounds somewhat similar to how the bible was put together. LOL
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 02:59 pm
....And Chirac said unto Shroeder "yea, let there be trade as free as the wind, but let not the cheap labourer come unto the kingdom of Francia"
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Will Chirac succeed?

From BBC:

"Chirac makes final push for 'Yes'
French President Jacques Chirac has made a dramatic last-ditch televised plea for a "Yes" vote in Sunday's referendum on the EU constitution.
Trying to buck the "No" trend which polls indicate, Mr Chirac urged voters not to use the referendum as a vote against the government.

It was a vote for the future, he said adding that Europeans would see a French "No" as a no to Europe.

The EU constitution has to be ratified by all 25 member states to become law.

The latest opinion poll, by TNS Sofres-Unilog, shows the "No" camp on 54%, with "Yes" on 46%."


Will Chirac succeed? Absolutely. I predict a yes vote....of at least 125% LOL.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:12 pm
JW, Now I am beginning to understand what your name represents. LOL
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:23 pm
She obviously has the same calculator as the European Bureaucrats, when it comes to that time of year when they work out their expenses. LOL
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:28 pm
Sorry to say it ain't only the European Bureaucrats that use 125% for their budgets. It's common practice by most of our governments in the US.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:32 pm
125% of the voters voting 'oui' may be conservative, considering Chirac's involvement. Might be more Smile

'Tis 'non' of my business, in any event.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:45 pm
JW, It's okay to offer our opinion even when it's worth less than .02c. Wink .02c in today's world doesn't buy anything - in our neighborhood.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 03:53 pm
Methinks JW knows Chirac's ways only too well.

She may well be right!!
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 05:34 pm

Constitution foes fear for France's soul


By Tom Hundley Tribune foreign correspondent
Thu May 26, 9:40 AM ET

Such are the depths of Francois Vincent's disdain for the new European constitution that he recently uttered words that have not passed the lips of many Frenchmen.

"I would rather be an American than a European," said Vincent, 63, who owns a vegetable stall in one of Paris' open-air markets. "At least Americans love their country."

Like many Frenchmen who plan to vote "no" in this Sunday's referendum, he is worried that the new European constitution will rob France of some vital piece of its national soul.

Didier Vernet, 53, a stallholder in the same market on Boulevard Raspail, thinks that's nuts.

"Do you think the French will be stupid enough to vote `no'?" he said with a disdain to match Vincent's. "That would really be going backwards."

The French referendum Sunday and another one three days later in the Netherlands have unexpectedly turned into a crisis for the architects of the European Union. Voters in both countries appear ready to ignore the pleadings of their elected leaders and reject the turgid 448-article draft that is supposed to serve as a constitution for the EU's 25 member states.

Thus far, 10 member states have approved the constitution, but only one, Spain, did so by referendum. The others ratified it in their national legislatures.

The draft constitution streamlines decision-making for the EU and gives it a stronger defense and foreign policy. The draft must be accepted by every member state before it becomes law.

The French and the Dutch have long been among the most enthusiastic supporters of the European project. When French President Jacques Chirac opted to put the constitution to a referendum rather than a legislative vote, he assumed it would be an easy sell. It now looms as the biggest miscalculation of his long political career.

Polls: `No' camp leads

Opinion polls over the past month have consistently shown the "no" camp with a steady lead in the range of 51 percent to 54 percent. The only hope for constitution supporters is that a quarter of voters say they have not yet made up their minds.

Chirac's center-right government, the opposition Socialist Party and most of the French political and intellectual establishment support the new constitution, arguing that a "no" vote will cripple the European project and cost France its place at the very heart of Europe.

The opposition comes in all political stripes: dissident socialists who fear the new constitution will end France's welfare state; Catholic nationalists angry that the document makes no mention of God; trade unions that fear it will export jobs to Eastern Europe; far-right followers of Jean-Marie Le Pen who think a "no" vote will keep Turkey out of the EU; anti-globos who argue that the document is a plot for the corporate takeover of Europe.

Bruno Jeanbart, an analyst with CSA, a polling group, said support for the European constitution is strongest among voters under 25 and over 60.

"The young voters feel that Europe is their future. They are less nationalistic and they see themselves as citizens of the world," he said. "Older people remember the period of war in Europe. They think a `yes' vote is not for them, but for their children and grandchildren."

Voters' attitudes toward the new constitution also break sharply along socioeconomic lines, with blue-collar workers and others with lower levels of education tending to fall into the "no" camp. Residents of rural areas also tend to be leery of the new document, even though French farmers have been the main beneficiaries of EU agricultural subsidies.

"The `no' is winning, but it is too early to declare victory because so many are undecided," Jeanbart said. "Many people want to say no because they don't understand the text. They haven't read it. It feels risky to say yes to something like this, but in the end I think many of these people will abstain."

Benefits hard to articulate

Dominique Reynie, an analyst with the National Foundation of Political Science in Paris, said the "yes" camp has had difficulty articulating any immediate benefit the constitution would bring to ordinary citizens, while opponents have 448 articles to pick apart.

"The `yes' camp speaks about an idea. It speaks about the future and how we will be stronger in the face of competition from China and India and the U.S. For the `no' camp, it's easy to attack the text on a point-by-point basis," he said.

Chirac has told voters that rejecting the constitution would weaken the French way of life and play into British (and American) designs for a weak European Union. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder warned that a "no" vote in France would mean "Europe's voice would weaken, it would have trouble making itself heard," while Romano Prodi, former head of the European Commission, said a French rejection would be tantamount to "the fall of Europe."

Opponents of the constitution say these fears are overblown.

"People are not voting against Europe. They are voting against a constitution . . . that has 448 articles and is completely incomprehensible to them," said Jean-Pierre Chevenement, a former Socialist defense minister and leader of a breakaway faction that opposes the constitution.

Meanwhile, the debate along Boulevard Raspail's open-air market went on even after the merchants began closing their stalls for the afternoon.

Vernet, the stallholder who supports the constitution, is confident that Chirac, who is to address the nation Thursday evening--one last time before the vote--would be able to make the sale.

"The one who speaks last always wins," he said.

But Vincent, who would rather be an American than a European, said he would never change his mind.

"They say [the constitution] is for democracy, but I think it will be a dictatorship," he said. "We'll all be put in boxes; we'll lose our country."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/chitribts/constitutionfoesfearforfrancessoul&printer=1
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 05:46 pm
Quote, "I would rather be an American than a European," said Vincent, 63, who owns a vegetable stall in one of Paris' open-air markets. "At least Americans love their country."

Now, that is a new twist in the French psyche. LOL

If they're trying to confuse us Americans, they've succeeded. Wink
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 09:38 pm
From the BBC:

French EU vote battle nears end
French Socialists will hold rallies in support of the "Yes" vote on the final day of campaigning for Sunday's referendum on the EU constitution.
On Thursday President Jacques Chirac made a TV plea for the country to back the charter, in which he said it was in France's best interests to vote "Yes".

But the latest poll indicates that 54% of the French plan to vote "No".
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 26 May, 2005 11:50 pm
Quote:
Chirac: You have France's destiny in your hands

By Rhiannon Harries in Paris and John Lichfield
27 May 2005


President Jacques Chirac warned French voters last night they had the "destiny" of France in their hands when they vote on the EU constitution this weekend.

A French "no" would leave France weakened within Europe and Europe weakened within a menacing world, M. Chirac said in a solemn address on radio and TV.

With opinion polls still predicting the country will vote "no" on Sunday, M. Chirac made a last throw of the dice to save the EU treaty, his own credibility and his presidential legacy. He also promised he would give a "a new impetus" to his actions next week, whatever the outcome of the vote. This was a clear signal that he plans to replace the desperately unpopular prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin.

Just before M. Chirac spoke, his former protégé and rival for leadership of the French right, Nicolas Sarkozy, admitted on television he was experiencing "family difficulties". He accused political rivals of stooping to "low blows" by propagating a rumour that his marriage was in trouble. M. Sarkozy denied he had had an extra-marital affair. He said his "family, like many others, had had difficulties, which we are overcoming. Should I say more? I don't think so".

In his 10-minute address to the nation ­ only his third direct intervention in the campaign ­ M. Chirac said a French "no" would "open a period of divisions, doubts and uncertainties in Europe".

France would lose its position of leadership and influence, he said. The Franco-German alliance, which was the "motor" of the EU, would be broken. The way would be left clear for "those who have an ultra-liberal vision of Europe, who wish Europe to become simply an area of free trade, with no political power and no independence [from the United States]".

This was a clear reference to Britain, seen by the French Left ­ which holds the key to the outcome of Sunday's poll ­ as a propagator of extreme capitalist ideas and American values within Europe. M. Chirac said there had been "an exemplary, democratic debate" in France. Each voter now "holds a part of the destiny of France in his or her hands", he added. The sense of resignation that has spread through the "yes" camp deepened yesterday after the publication of an 11th successive poll putting the "no" vote ahead.

The study, for the newspaper Le Monde, showed the "no" currently leading by 54 per cent, up 1 per cent on a survey by the same group last week. Key figures in the French government have already publicly resigned themselves to a rejection of the treaty and have begun to prepare for the political aftermath.

M. Sarkozy, the leader of the ruling UMP Party and a likely rival to M. Chirac in the next presidential contest, delivered the most pessimistic outlook this week. Whilst a week ago he spoke of the possibility of a "small yes", he now reportedly maintains it is no longer a question of a "yes" or "no", just "a small no or big no".

M. Sarkozy privately expects the "no" to take 54 or 55 per cent of the vote, according to yesterday's Le Parisien newspaper. But his spokesman denied that he had said that the vote was already lost.

Several other members of the "yes" campaign have conceded a negative result looks increasingly likely. Even M. Raffarin, who has continued to insist the 20 per cent of French voters who have not yet made up their minds could turn the vote around, seems to have steeled himself for a defeat. His unpopularity has been cited as a contributing factor in the popularity of the "no", and jostling over his successor has begun.
Source
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 09:36 am
It appears that the predicted late shift in sentiment towards 'Yes" will not occur. Still the outcome will be interesting. The big question for me is, how will Europeans act in the aftermath of a defeat of the constitution in France (and later the Netherlands).? What will be the effect in France & Germany where the strongest support of the Union has long existed? What will be the effects among the new members from eastern Europe? Will we see a new alignment of political forces among EU members? Will there follow a long period of stagnation in the development of the EU, or will there be quick attempts to regroup and readress the basic issues?

I certainly don't claim to know the answers to these questions, but will be very interested to see how the coming situation evolves. I hope that Europe is able to regroup and, if necessary, take a pause while awaiting the development of new approaches, without any serious setbacks to the cause oif unity.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 10:04 am
Like I said....we never had a Constitution before, and have had no problems.

The EU is primarily for free trade within its borders, and freedom of residence/work/travel for its citizens.
That wont change either.

The only possible big thing that might change , would be a halt to its expansion plan, and not allowing other Countries (Turkey, Croatia etc)to join up.

So it will affect those other Countries, but we wont notice much difference to our lives, if any.

Chirac, Shroeder and their top Bureaucrats may be affected, as it would be a major blow to the "iilusion" (because that is what it is fast becoming) that they hold the power in the EU.
Power would be a lot more shared in the future, and maybe a bit of the true "free market" will start to enter into things, as opposed to French (mainly) and German (less so) protectionism.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 10:10 am
Actually, there wont be any differences to what is going on today.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 10:12 am
Maybe in another five years or so, sentiment may change for a constitution.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 10:15 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
Like I said....we never had a Constitution before, and have had no problems.



I doubt that heavily.

The UK has no written constitution, but the elements of the United Kingdom constitution have to be sought out by consulting any or all of five (?) different sources:

- a statute, i.e. an Act of Parliament,
- a judicial pronouncement on the meaning of certain words in the statute,
- a principle of the Common Law,
- the body of law that relates to the status and operation of Parliament and its members,
- the conventions of the Constitution, such as the convention that Parliament must meet at least once a year, that the sovereign does not attend Cabinet meetings, and that ministers who lose the confidence of the House of Commons on a major issue must resign ... .
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 11:04 am
Sorry Walter, I should have made it a bit clearer. The "we" I was referring to, was the EU.
The EU (although it may have changed its name a couple of times) has been in existence for donkeys years now, and apart from a couple of anomalies here and there, has ticked along quite nicely.
Like you said previously, we wont notice any difference to our lives without this Constitution ......so we cant really be doing much wrong as we are.
I think we WOULD notice a difference if THIS particular Constitution was adopted, as we would be weighed down with reams and reams of Legal and diplomatic twaddle. So the change we would notice if the yes vote carries the day, would not necessarily be for the good, in my humble opinion, of course.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 27 May, 2005 11:09 am
What then do you guys believe will be the political after effects (if any) of a rejection by France and The Netherlands in Western Europe? Among the new members in the East?
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