Neglect or abuse?

Only in the context of the world they live in - kick 'em back a millennium and they would probably be considered top notch.

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Can her mother read? Her may "hate" books because she can't read herself.

If this student has been in school for eleven years and can't read beyond the first grade level, the fact that her parents didn't read to her is a mitigating circumstance, but certainly probably not the determining factor as to why she has not progressed in terms of reading proficiency.

Also certain learning disabilities seem to have a hereditary component attached to them.

I was the third of six children born within a ten year span. My parents were very involved, concerned, educated people who both read voraciously and provided books in our home, but I can't honestly say that I can every remember either on of them ever having time to sit with me and read a book to me. Still, I was reading (pretty much non-stop and voraciously) by the time I was in first grade and have never looked back.

Though my parents did not read to me, I didn't feel neglected or abused - and I was able to learn to read per the instruction I received in school. There's something else going on with this student.

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Can I reconsider my last post?

Do they hate books because they too are illiterate?

Is the parent who doesn't work three jobs so that they can send their kid to private school and pay for personal tutors guilty of abuse?

Another 'where do draw the line' question.

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I meant to say "her mother" - not her (in the second sentence). Sorry...

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hingehead -- The school is public and the child was brought here from Everett, a town well known for being the drug center of New England, by her parents because she is interested in gangs.

The parents are from Peru. The mother may indeed be illiterate. The child is a princess. Spoiled rotten. The mother is pregnant and now can not cook because she is pregnant. Another princess.

But, let's get back to the matter at hand: the role parents play in their children's stupidity. The Everett schools sent this kid to a therapist. What kind, I don't know.

There is a report code to alert parents that their kids do not read at grade level. I used this code with several in my case load. A mom signed up for a conference tonight and didn't show. Any parent who allows their child to read below grade level is suspect.

Several people have suggested reporting these parents to the Department of Social Services as a way of advertising the problem.

Allowing kids to not gain reading comprehension is like sending them into traffic blindfolded.

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Hmmm, so she's Nesby? Maybe she's literate in Spanish?

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But, let's get back to the matter at hand: the role parents play in their children's stupidity.

A reading disability is not "stupidity". If she's being taught by people who view her inability to decode and comprehend as "stupidity", that's probably a large part of the reason she hasn't learned to read in school, which is where most children do learn to read, by the way.

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Any parent who allows their child to read below grade level is suspect.

Very few parents are able to teach their children to read at home. Reading to a child at home helps that child gain familiarity with the format of books and the sounds of letters and words, but children who learn to read at home usually have exceptional visual memories - they are able to memorize words they hear read to them and then through practice attach that memorized word to a group of letters- the whole word method as opposed to phonics and decoding. These children pretty much teach themselves and are the exception rather than the rule.

I have a friend who is a reading teacher whose son was not able to read fluently on grade level until he was in fifth or sixth grade. This was despite her dedicated tutoring of him every night from first grade on, when it became obvious there was a problem. Reading is a developmental skill, and some children are just not at the readiness stage at the same point others are, so this:

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Several people have suggested reporting these parents to the Department of Social Services as a way of advertising the problem.

is just scary.

And if they're going to report the parents, who would they report the teachers to? I mean, they're the professionals who have had eleven years and actual experience in teaching reading to this child, and they have "allowed" this student to continue reading below grade level.

It all sounds slightly fascist.

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If your child reports that you hate books, you are to blame.

Another parent in the group seems to think it is okay that her daughter's reading comprehension is below grade level. And it is comprehension, not fluidity, that is the issue.

Are you aware that there have been several law suits pressed on behalf of former SPED students who now expect accomodations on the job? To date, all have been dismissed. The source for this info was verbal but the person relating it is highly trustworthy.

There are too many kids who are in SPED who have nothing wrong with them except cultural deprivation in the home.

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If your child reports that you hate books, you are to blame.

For what? For stating a personal preference? It's not one I would endorse, but I certainly don't think someone saying she hate books would entirely explain why a sixteen year old, after having been passed through eleven grades of public school instruction, is reading at a first grade level.
My mother hates math - but I learned how to do it. Her aversion to math - because she found it difficult- had absolutely no influence on my attitude or aptitude for it. But that's because I don't have a learning disability.
It's just not that black and white. Not knowing this woman, I can't say whether she crossed a line in influencing her daughter or not - but I can say that I thank god noone called social services on me because my daughter was unable to learn her multiplication facts at the same time most other children her age did. Sometimes kids just don't do (or are not able to do) what parents and teachers want them to exactly when they want them to.

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Are you aware that there have been several law suits pressed on behalf of former SPED students who now expect accomodations on the job? To date, all have been dismissed. The source for this info was verbal but the person relating it is highly trustworthy

.
It's a litigious society we're living in. Everyone wants something for nothing, and it just gets crazier and crazier with everyone pointing the finger of "blame" at everyone else.

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There are too many kids who are in SPED who have nothing wrong with them except cultural deprivation in the home.

I wish it was that easy to isolate any one particular reason for all the unmotivated, uninterested students who are looking for an easy way out. But even if cultural deprivation is the only factor, is the answer to drag their parents (who may have been culturally deprived themselves) into court, and disrupt those childrens' lives even more than they already have been? What purpose will it serve? Will they have court ordered visits to museums or something...come on.

Teachers can't control what happens in the home of their students. They can only control what happens in the classroom. And if I knew a student had a culturally deprived home, I'd make it even more of a priority to expose that child to a culturally rich school experience.

Not saying I'm not frustrated too - but you can only do and control what you can do and control. You can't control the whole world- or at least I can't. And I don't want to spend my time judging every one else who isn't just like me. You take what you get and you do the best you can with it. You change what can be changed, and you deal with whatever you have left-or you spend all your time complaining and creating adversarial relationships with parents and nothing gets done at home or at school.

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For one thing, you assumed the kid was in 11th grade. She's in 9th. I could round out the portrait, but when parents ridicule education, they tell their kids not to educate themselves. When parents say they hate reading, they set up a kid for failure.

I think the mother is a princess who has raised another princess, spoiled, lazy and shiftless.

BTW, the girl was enrolled in a school system in Everett, MA, a terrible place where the police disconnect the pay phones in a futile attempt to stop drug dealing.

Parents have to bear responsibility.

Now, this girl says kids fail in public school because teachers don't care and that if she could go to private school, she would succeed.

Frankly, a gum chewing kid who dresses in stolen (she admits) ghetto style togs and who puts her head on her desk every chance she gets is a turn off. She thinks she's pretty (not) and that is more than enough for her. No interests in anything.

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For one thing, you assumed the kid was in 11th grade. She's in 9th.

Excuse me, so she's in her tenth year (counting kindergarten) of public education instead of her eleventh- or of course she might have been retained once- in which case she'd still have started school at the age of five, eleven years ago.

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I think the mother is a princess who has raised another princess, spoiled, lazy and shiftless.

This might very well be true, but even if it's not, you probably make it known to her that this is what you think of her, and that's probably why she says things like:

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"kids fail in public school because teachers don't care and that if she could go to private school, she would succeed. "

You're not only indifferent, you actively dislike her. Not a good indication for a positive educational outcome, if you're her teacher.
I'm not saying for a moment teachers aren't human and can honestly say they like every single one of their students. It happens, and god knows some of the little shits are really easy to dislike sometimes, but there's no denying that has a negative effect on what happens in the classroom, irregardless of what else is going on in that child's home. And teachers have to bear responsibility for their part in that.

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BTW, the girl was enrolled in a school system in Everett, MA, a terrible place where the police disconnect the pay phones in a futile attempt to stop drug dealing.

Like I said, there are other factors. Don't you think this might have some bearing on her inability to focus and learn. Maybe what she lives around and in everyday has infused her with a feeling of futility about the whole thing. How important can school be when you live in a neighborhood in which most of the inhabitants are just struggling to stay safe, alive and survive?

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She thinks she's pretty (not) and that is more than enough for her.

So you don't even think she's pretty- god forbid. No wonder you two don't get along (little joke).

POM - it sounds like you're a little burnt out. Believe me, I'm not pointing fingers - it's so easy to feel that way. You work your ass off for kids (and parents) sometimes who don't give a crap one way or the other. There are places you can work where the people you're teaching really do want to learn and value your skills.

Have you tried applying at your local community college? The adult education programs for people who dropped out of highschool and are returning to finish for their diploma or GED are full of people who have grown up enough to recognize the need for an education and are thirsty for it. You might feel more appreciated somewhere like that.

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Parents have to bear responsibility.

I couldn't agree more, but even when they don't, teachers are still responsible for educating these kids, and in fact, when you have a parent or set of parents that are just not there - the kids need the teachers even more. Both parties abdicating their responsibility is the last thing a child needs.

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Why should a teacher like all of their students? That's impossible. Liking them has nothing to do with the outcome of your teaching. In fact, a good argument can be made for not liking them.

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aidan wrote:

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Parents have to bear responsibility.

I couldn't agree more, but even when they don't, teachers are still responsible for educating these kids, and in fact, when you have a parent or set of parents that are just not there - the kids need the teachers even more. Both parties abdicating their responsibility is the last thing a child needs.

Do you know that some kids either can not be educated (for intellectual or emotional reasons? That some kids resist being educated. This girl and the other girl in my SPED English class are playing a game that involves losing their papers. One way to deal with them is to deduct points for every day they are late with their work, and to not accept the work after the third day. Another is to give the kids that do the work on time extra points.

I do stand on my statement that when a mother says she hates books, she raises someone -- who, unless she is rebellious -- who also hates books.

It isn't important to read literature. It isn't even important to read novels, but, if you can not read what kids in the third grade read, you can't read science; you can't read the newspaper; you probably can't read the instructions for your appliances; you can't vote responsibly; you can't pass the driver's license test.

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aidan wrote:

Quote:
BTW, the girl was enrolled in a school system in Everett, MA, a terrible place where the police disconnect the pay phones in a futile attempt to stop drug dealing.
Like I said, there are other factors. Don't you think this might have some bearing on her inability to focus and learn. Maybe what she lives around and in everyday has infused her with a feeling of futility about the whole thing. How important can school be when you live in a neighborhood in which most of the inhabitants are just struggling to stay safe, alive and survive?

She admires the lives that were around her in Everett. She thinks the people of Arlington -- a rather mixed suburb immediately adjacent Cambridge, MA where the people range from 'townies' to college profs -- are hicks. She writes "hicks" and "lossers" all over sheets of paper in reference to her classmates and the people in the town. To her, being a "Bloods" moll is the height of glamour and sophistication.

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BTW -- Re: being burned out.

I am a first year teacher, albeit for the second time, as I taught for a year in Michigan in the 1970s.

I have made work for women over-50 something of a crusade. I graduated with a master's degree from Harvard nine years ago and spent most of the time looking for work. My first aim was publishing because I was a journalist in my 20s and had a previous master's in English. My plan B was to work in university administration. I even had a Plan C, which was to be a security guard at the Museum of Fine Arts because Detroit's Institute of Arts has the coolest people working in security. That's a no dice today because you need a police background.

Between my 1998 graduation and 2000, I sent out more than 1,400 resumes and was called for 17 interviews. Most of the women my age have given up and are doing things like working at WalMArt or other retail work. I wouldn't give up.

I'm not trained in SPED although is more teaching Language Arts than teaching English. People in SPED really liked me while I was substitute teaching because I was patient with the kids and non-judgmental.

I do not see that this girl has a disability. I think she made the decision in first grade to not read because it wasn't "cool" or whatever word was fashionable then.

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POM - I don't agree that some people can't be educated. I do agree that some people (especially kids in adolescence) are not willing at that point in time to cooperate and actively participate in being educated. And it can look like they're not being educated in any way, shape or form.

But even if you just model how to treat people with respect and this girl learns nothing else- at least she's learning that. That's an important life skill and will increase her chances for success. In SPED - you have to break everything down to its most basic component. If you're only willing to recognize major milestones (like teaching this 16 year old to read when noone else has succeeded) they'll be few and far between and you'll never feel that you're achieving anything.

Because, this is what I've learned from working with kids like this girl for a really long time. At this point in her life, although she acts as if she's all that - the reality is she probably hates herself. And a lot of it might have to do with the fact that she feels inadequate academically and intellectually. So to save face, instead of being seen as someone who tries and still fails, (stupid- as you said), its more acceptable to her self-esteem to assure herself that she only fails because she doesn't care enough to try.

It's my own personal belief that my job in education is about more than imparting skills and knowledge. Because a lot of the people I work with need other things first- think Maslow's heirarchy of needs. They need acceptance of who they are (underneath the facade). They wear these facades because they believe, for whatever reason, they have to protect their true selves. So I work to let them know that I see someone likeable underneath the facade- and that it's safe for them to take that facade off in front of me. I don't care if they can't spell or write. I won't think they're stupid if they can't read at the age of sixteen. We'll start from wherever they are and just try to progress from there.

Because otherwise, I'd just be trying to cram information into a vessel that wasn't capable of accepting it or holding it. If you teach this girl nothing else except to love and accept herself-you've done more than your job. Because then eventually she'll be more able to learn facts, data and skills, and feel confident enough to admit, "I can't read. I'm sixteen years old, and I can't read. I need to let someone help me."

If her mother is as you describe her, this girl has probably never received "real" acceptance or caring from the most important person in her life. This can have a real and lasting negative impact on a person. And her inability or unwillingness to read - though crippling, I agree- is probably the least of it. Maybe in a strange sense it's the only way she can see to connect with her mother- you know - my mother hates to read and so do I...

Of course, in today's climate, you have the administrators breathing down your neck, and they don't particularly care that this girl doesn't like herself - they want a percentage point on a test. There are some cases where you just have to remind yourself, and tell your principal straight out that you might not get that number this year, but you're setting the stage to maybe get it next year- which is better than never- which it would be if you were to continue a futile battle of wills.

You do sound (from your experience, education and interests) really suited to working with young adults in a non-traditional setting. Your story (that you told here) and the perseverence you exhibited when you kept "failing" to get what you initially planned for would be something they could relate to. Hell, maybe you should even take this girl aside and tell her- let her see you as a human being who hasn't gotten every thing handed to her, and has had disappointments, etc. If one aspect of your relationship changes, the whole situation might.

I don't like all my students. But I don't ever let them know that. I don't put up with ****. I let them know their behavior is intolerable and unacceptable, but I never let them see I don't like them.
In my opinion, that would be inexcusable -hurtful and embarrassing to the child, and unprofessional of me. Even if I have to pretend I like them, I pretend - because I do believe it's my job to treat them all with respect and acceptance. The funny thing is - after pretending for a while, I almost always find, I've come to like them for real...sounds crazy I know...but it's true- and a lot of it is because they're behavior has changed- they've taken off the facade. And it's only at that point that you can get any real work done.

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aidan wrote:

POM - I don't agree that some people can't be educated. I do agree that some people (especially kids in adolescence) are not willing at that point in time to cooperate and actively participate in being educated. And it can look like they're not being educated in any way, shape or form.

But even if you just model how to treat people with respect and this girl learns nothing else- at least she's learning that. That's an important life skill and will increase her chances for success. In SPED - you have to break everything down to its most basic component. If you're only willing to recognize major milestones (like teaching this 16 year old to read when noone else has succeeded) they'll be few and far between and you'll never feel that you're achieving anything.

Because, this is what I've learned from working with kids like this girl for a really long time. At this point in her life, although she acts as if she's all that - the reality is she probably hates herself. And a lot of it might have to do with the fact that she feels inadequate academically and intellectually. So to save face, instead of being seen as someone who tries and still fails, (stupid- as you said), its more acceptable to her self-esteem to assure herself that she only fails because she doesn't care enough to try.

It's my own personal belief that my job in education is about more than imparting skills and knowledge. Because a lot of the people I work with need other things first- think Maslow's heirarchy of needs. They need acceptance of who they are (underneath the facade). They wear these facades because they believe, for whatever reason, they have to protect their true selves. So I work to let them know that I see someone likeable underneath the facade- and that it's safe for them to take that facade off in front of me. I don't care if they can't spell or write. I won't think they're stupid if they can't read at the age of sixteen. We'll start from wherever they are and just try to progress from there.

Because otherwise, I'd just be trying to cram information into a vessel that wasn't capable of accepting it or holding it. If you teach this girl nothing else except to love and accept herself-you've done more than your job. Because then eventually she'll be more able to learn facts, data and skills, and feel confident enough to admit, "I can't read. I'm sixteen years old, and I can't read. I need to let someone help me."

If her mother is as you describe her, this girl has probably never received "real" acceptance or caring from the most important person in her life. This can have a real and lasting negative impact on a person. And her inability or unwillingness to read - though crippling, I agree- is probably the least of it. Maybe in a strange sense it's the only way she can see to connect with her mother- you know - my mother hates to read and so do I...

Of course, in today's climate, you have the administrators breathing down your neck, and they don't particularly care that this girl doesn't like herself - they want a percentage point on a test. There are some cases where you just have to remind yourself, and tell your principal straight out that you might not get that number this year, but you're setting the stage to maybe get it next year- which is better than never- which it would be if you were to continue a futile battle of wills.

You do sound (from your experience, education and interests) really suited to working with young adults in a non-traditional setting. Your story (that you told here) and the perseverence you exhibited when you kept "failing" to get what you initially planned for would be something they could relate to. Hell, maybe you should even take this girl aside and tell her- let her see you as a human being who hasn't gotten every thing handed to her, and has had disappointments, etc. If one aspect of your relationship changes, the whole situation might.

I don't like all my students. But I don't ever let them know that. I don't put up with ****. I let them know their behavior is intolerable and unacceptable, but I never let them see I don't like them.
In my opinion, that would be inexcusable -hurtful and embarrassing to the child, and unprofessional of me. Even if I have to pretend I like them, I pretend - because I do believe it's my job to treat them all with respect and acceptance. The funny thing is - after pretending for a while, I almost always find, I've come to like them for real...sounds crazy I know...but it's true- and a lot of it is because they're behavior has changed- they've taken off the facade. And it's only at that point that you can get any real work done.

sorry i don't know how to quote just a part - congratulations, aidan, you understand what teaching is, understand that a problem student has a complex personality that requires an attitude that respects that complexness

i myself teach all kinds of senior high school personalities, some of them rebellious, some of them hardworking and disciplined - sometimes they make a too complicated class environment and i have to deal with it and they keep judging how fair i am - one of the latest discoveries i made was that i gave a couple of rebellious girls more benefits than others, after about 2 years of teaching them trying to find out how to get them work 100 percent which usually failed, i found out that the best i can do is let them sit where they sit at the back of the classroom, let them sit next to each other, not split them apart and that made them peaceful, respectful and grateful, i think they like me again - not that it is necessary that all students like the teacher, but they should somehow trust you, if you don't want to make teaching a military discipline

i always tell my students that i want them to respect - not only me, but the whole efforts of the class , our work, and i tell them that the respect i want is not in the sense of "adoring or praising me or anyone" but being polite, respecful in the sense of "caring about others and their needs"

There was a moment when a year ago they were supposed to write a 40 minute essay. The whole class started to write silently, all focused, except this little rebel with dreadlocks. I asked, are you going to write your essay, S.? And she said. No. I said why, don't you see all students are writing, why not you? I said that with a peaceful, kind tone. She yelled> They are all DIGS! ( i am not sure about the word, do you use it in US in the sense Students who try really hard to learn and get the best grades) I said nothing, just someting like uh huh... SHe started to write her essay in about 5 minutes and it was very good. SOmetimes it is better not to push a student. SHe will start by herself when she feels nobody pushes her.

There are two kinds of teaching - teaching those who sit there quietly and do whatever you tell them to do and they do it gladly and smile. To teach such students you just need to know about lesson planning, managing, eliciting, your subject as a whole, of course. The other kind of teaching is much more complex. TEaching students who rebel, refuse, yell, attack, test, disagree, criticize, cry, etc. requires an extra ability. It is something I am still learning about and it is very difficult because they didn't teach us this at university and i am not a natural talent for this kind of teaching. BUt as I said, if yhou don't want to be a soldier punishing students making them shrink with fear once you show up in the classroom, you have to be respectful, kind and know lots about psychology of groups and leading.
To get along with students without being a soldier is something I still see as an ideal.

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Quote:

i always tell my students that i want them to respect - not only me, but the whole efforts of the class , our work, and i tell them that the respect i want is not in the sense of "adoring or praising me or anyone" but being polite, respecful in the sense of "caring about others and their needs"

I like the way you put this.

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There was a moment when a year ago they were supposed to write a 40 minute essay. The whole class started to write silently, all focused, except this little rebel with dreadlocks. I asked, are you going to write your essay, S.? And she said. No. I said why, don't you see all students are writing, why not you? I said that with a peaceful, kind tone. She yelled> They are all DIGS! ( i am not sure about the word, do you use it in US in the sense Students who try really hard to learn and get the best grades) I said nothing, just someting like uh huh... SHe started to write her essay in about 5 minutes and it was very good. SOmetimes it is better not to push a student. SHe will start by herself when she feels nobody pushes her.

Some kids will try all sorts of diversionary tactics, and when you show them that you refuse to engage, they realize the futility of their ploy and decide just to do what you ask them to. I don't know how long you've been teaching, but you seem to have really good instincts.

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BUt as I said, if yhou don't want to be a soldier punishing students making them shrink with fear once you show up in the classroom, you have to be respectful, kind and know lots about psychology of groups and leading.
To get along with students without being a soldier is something I still see as an ideal.

Because it makes the job tolerable, and actually fun. I try to liken it to a team effort. If we work together as a team - we'll be more successful. And I offer myself as the most committed member of the team (because I'm the adult and I'm the one who's getting paid to be there). I tell them that I will go every step of the way with them in the right direction, but that they should not even ask me to take one step with them in the wrong direction, because I won't do it - and we'll all just end up frustrated and disappointed.

You have to show them why it's worth their while to cooperate. And if they like you and trust you and want you on their side - that's a pretty good incentive.

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aidan, you seem to have the same attitude and similar experience in teaching, i wish i could pm you but the system won't let me to, so if you don't mind me sharing something more private about teaching that i would like to discuss, please send me email to [email protected]
thank you

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