Imitating/plagiarism

I remember I wrote the crazy train melody almost exactly how Ozzy Osbourne did. I had never even heard the song, then I did..

I think there is a clear difference between plagiarism and being unoriginal. The former is theft, but the latter is very common!

There is a difference between stealing another writer's words and telling a story in your own words which may have been influenced by what you have read.

Write from your heart and don't be afraid.

About 1970, I wrote the poem I am going to post in my reply. It took less than a half hour to finish it. Ever after, I was haunted by the fear I had simply remembered another's writing and copied it down. I have searched all these years, but have never found one similar.

I used to show it with that disclaimer. Now, I just accept that it really is all mine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somewhere old tigers are free
They lie in sunlit glades
You can hear them growling sleepily
You can tell their minds are made
Somewhere Midas is the king
His walls are paved with gold
He never wants for anything
His rooms are never too cold
His rooms are never too cold

As you turn inside your room
You look into your fate
Your past is a holy womb
Your future comes too late
Outside the city's breathing loud
You see the subway throngs
In the seething of the crowd
You hear their rattling bones
You hear their rattling bones

You've played the radio
It's the same on every band
You've scorned the late late show
Missed the party that you'd planned
How your body aches with pain
But your mind's too false to move
In the dark night on the wane
You've nothing else to lose
You've not a thing to lose

So now the wheel must turn
The dust will settle down
You've never watched your candle burn
You've never moved around
You've only guessed the mystery
In a lonely mirror's scowl
Through the deep hurting mysery
You hear old tigers growl
You hear old tigers growl

I get uneasy feelings thinking that I may have inadvertently claimed someone else's words for my own sometimes - particularly when I write a phrase I really, really like and think that it's not possible that it came from my brain.

Because I read all the time, everyday, all day and I listen to a lot of music - I sometimes think I pick up phrases and use them without remembering that I've heard them before or where I've heard them.

If something sounds vaguely familiar, or too good to be mine, I'll google it to see if it comes up anywhere. So far, it never has. And I guess I think if it hasn't been attributed to anyone else specifically, it's okay for me to use it.

I don't think broad ideas or specific subject areas or concepts can be claimed or owned. There are just too many people in the world with common experiences and everyone should be able to express their feelings on whatever subject or concept they wish - even if it's been done a million times before. I always enjoy seeing different peoples' takes on the same subject or idea.

Of course if you steal a plot, complete with characters, setting, etc.- that's taking it too far.

(Edgar - you're on a roll these days. I'm really enjoying the stuff you're posting lately- this one especially. And it doesn't seem familiar to me at all - it seems totally original).

True, that there is a clear difference between plagiarism and being
unoriginal. Plagiarism is something you are aware of doing, and not at all the same as unconsciously imitating or coming up with something similar.
The writing industry is very competitive today, and if you want to make it you have to stick out in one way or another - be original. But yet again, there have always been sertain themes that sells, crime stories for example. And concidering how many of those have been written it's very hard to come up with something fresh, which I think goes for any genre really.
So in one way I think it's wise to stick to original themes to a setain degree. But we all want to be something special, right? And even though you try, it's in a logical sense very hard NOT to write something similar to someone else when you think of how many stories people have come up with through out history.
But it is those small things that worries me personally. The story itself can be quite new, but still contain those called "original" scenes and happenings. And I don't want that!


Exactly, something that affects you subconsciously and you pick up without noticing it.

I'm currently working on my second novel (in my first language, swedish) but keep getting stuck every time I think I come up with something really good, thinking that it must sound like someone elses work before me.
And when you think about it, my story's theme is quite classical, if you know what I mean. Love between two men in the 16th century, with almost a horror feeling to it. And I'm fine with that, as long as I manage to come up with my own happenings so to speak, which is what I'm afraid of. That it's infact something I draged out of my mind where I stored if after hearing it somewhere else. Hope you know what I mean.
They have always kept telling me I'm really talented at what I do, but I want to be more. Original.

But I agree with you, contrex. I got a good advice once, that you should write what you youself would want to read, without being afraid, like you said. This I think also depends on WHY you are writing in the first place, what your purpose is. To make it on the big market, to entertain or just for your own pleasure?

The notion of plagiarism can be come tangled with the concepts of cliched writing and literary reference.

Ten years ago I was reading a local shopper newspaper. The woman writing the food column announced, "I call macaroni and cheese "comfort food". The phrase, "comfort food" was making its way into the language, and she had not invented either the phrase or the concept.

Still, I wouldn't call her a "plagiarist"--"phoney" or "poseur" would be better terms.

"Comfort me with apples" would be a literary illusion.

"....the classic comfort of a such and such as made by so and so" is rather cliched description.

So it goes.

(Edgar, Aidan's right - you've been on top form lately)


**************************************************

Hi Eirene
Welcome


You've got me thinking....
Hope you don't mind if I share my thoughts for a bit?
Bare with me - I'll get to the plagiarism eventually...

I'm deeply affected by music (anything from Henryk Gorecki to Rap) and lyrics inspire me (as do other poets).

A poem I wrote a little while ago, which referenced Rage Against the Machine has several lines of their lyrics in it.
The poem isn't just about listening to them - it's about how their music affects me.
I feel that's okay, because I've taken the 'expression' of the song and transformed it into something different and meaningful to me.

In a way it's more of a tribute -like sampling (although i'm not sure about copyright here)
I think, that as long as I reference the band in the title (which i did)
And I'm open about it (which i was)
Then that's okay.

I write a lot - and I realise that I have repeated certain phrases. I'm very drawn to symbols and believe in the power of symbolism - and i've noticed certain symbolic descriptions in my work that are constant.

For instance, in the last year, I've posted a hell of a lot of poetry up here and I think I've mentioned a 'shattered knife' 3 or 4 times!

(only noticed this the other day)


Anyway, in my writing I have found it hard not to repeat the words of speechmakers or journalists I admire, when writing about politics.
But if something makes perfect sense to me, why would i want to change it? I'm always forgetting where i read something - or who said whatever - so quoting isn't always possible (yeah i could try and google it - but i'm too lazy sometimes)

As for outright copying - as in taking someone's work and deliberately deleting their name - I believe any true artist would never want to do that.
A businessman might.

for me it is the creation of the work, not the work itself that satisfies.
Writing is (for me) a passion and I love the buzz I get when one line out of fifty does it for me - seriously, I'd rather spend my time learning about myself through my writing, than wondering about what it takes to be a great writer - because I already know I'm never going to get anywhere near that.

There are thousands of great writers out there - but only one of each of us - what we say is utterly unique - that's cool enough.

I do sometimes wonder how I would feel if I saw one of my better poems somewhere, - on a different forum perhaps - word for word, with someone else's name under it.
Hard to imagine, but as I write anonymously I guess it's a possibility.
That's one good thing about an a2k thread - it has the dates of each post - so hopefully you can't be accused of nicking your own stuff!


wow i've said a lot- better shut up now - before i start repeating myself!

Good luck with your work

Peace
Endy

Good question.


Actually, most or pretty much all of my previous stories occupy a existing topic.

For example, X-Men, mutants.
I write story called "Super Gene" where people are called something different than mutants, but wield similar fantastic powers. Of course the whole fun of the story was thinking of weird powers and plausible means of obtaining them.

There almost is like a standard for writing one must play off of. It takes a long time, a lot of frustration to find something that noone (that you know off) has ever conceived an idea such as yours. In all my efforts I think I only accomplished this once, with my current story.

Even so, there will always be those people out there who will claim original work as cliche' and such. That's just those kinda people.

There was a phase in my life I got that a lot and heard, saw, read it a lot. I got sick of it and stated "Everyone is a writer, that's why everything is cliche".

Basically the modern term of original is and will always remain on a standard or basis.

"Your writing a story about humans!" Well, got to start somewhere.

Some of the most successful stuff I've seen originally played off a standard set in writing, history, or theories.

originality exists in the way you views things as a person who dwells on this planet.

Playing a standard is normal, but there is an infinite span of unique concepts/ideas/notions that can be connected or related to it. All I really care about is Creativity, which is always original if written from the heart of someone who demonstrates a passion for writing. If you accomplish that in every essence of a story, you pass in my book.

It sounds like what you're doing is quoting and alluding to, not copying or plagiarizing. Quoting is fine, and in many cases can be used to great effect. Half of everything T.S. Eliot ever wrote was a quotation of or allusion to something else.

There's a great poem by Denise Levertov entitled "O Taste and See" whose first line is an amusing jab at Wordsworth: "The world / is not with us enough."

Thanks shapeless - I keep a notebook these days and write down the names of authors/poets as they're mentioned and I've added Denise Levertov to the list.

I've recently read some poetry by Lidija Dimkovska (Macedonia) Do you know her?
She uses a 'quote' from Pink Floyd in the middle of her poem 'Gospel According To Self'
"Hey, teacher - leave those kids alone"
Man, the first time I read that I thought wow -with one sentence she has turned piety into hypocrisy - and she didn't have to explain anything!

I've been listening to David Bowie - great lyrics - and there are a few lines going around in my head that I'm sure will influence my writing sometime soon.

That's often how it goes for me.