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Thu 16 Nov, 2006 05:03 pm
Where is the Incentive?
If One really examines and investigates, they will see that at the root of a Believers fall, there always lies some type of false doctrine. These doctrine can range anywhere from "There is no Hell," to "The obedience of the Law is not needed for Salvation." And as always, there are always some unsuspecting souls with itching ears who are ready to lap up these doctrines.
So, why is a false doctrine always at the root of a fall. Well, because whether Believers realise it or not, false doctrines have the ability to erode One's fear, reverence, and love for God and his statutes. And by eroding that fear, reverence and love, these doctrines will lead One to behave in a manner which will cause them to fall and miss their Goal. For instance, let us use Salvation as an example. If Salvation is one of life's Ultimate Goals, then:
If Salvation is already guaranteed, then where is the incentive for One to Continue to live righteously ?
If works are not necessary for Salvation, then where is the incentive for One to Continue do righteous works ?
If the obedience of the Law is not necessary for Salvation, then where is the incentive for One to Continue to obey the Law?
If you are not under the Law, then where is the incentive for One to Continue to obey the Law?
If righteous living is not necessary for Salvation, then where is the incentive for One to Continue to live righteously?
If a verbal confession of, "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior," is all that is needed for Salvation, then where is the incentive to Continue to live righteously ?
If by not living righteously you will still receive the reward, then where is the incentive to Continue to live righteously?
What is the incentive for One to Continue to live righteously, if your seat at that Coronation has already been guaranteed?
If all of your incentives have been removed, what will keep you from falling?
Do you really think that when all of your incentives are removed, that you will not fall?
Do you think that God does not know and understand human nature?
Do you really believe that God is that foolish?
If you thought that you will not fall because of these doctrines which have been formulated to remove all of your incentives, or if you did not realise that these doctrines are at the root of every great fall, then you did not comprehend or understand the story of Adam and Eve. And if you did not comprehend or understand the story of Adam and Eve, then you do not comprehend or understand human nature. And if you do not comprehend and understand human nature, then you do not know the purpose of the Bible. And if you do not know the purpose of the Bible, then you have no idea who or what you worship.
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
There is nothing to fall "from." Just live a good and productive life while trying to keep healthy. Like the majority of human life on this planet, we will be forgotten within the next two or three generations - to be forgotten forever.
Don't lose any sleep over it; just learn to enjoy life.
cicerone imposter wrote:There is nothing to fall "from." Just live a good and productive life while trying to keep healthy. Like the majority of human life on this planet, we will be forgotten within the next two or three generations - to be forgotten forever.
Don't lose any sleep over it; just learn to enjoy life.
How can you truly enjoy life if you are seperated from the things which make life enjoyable?
If you are separated from the things that makes your life enjoyable, don't you have some responsibility to fix it? Ofcoarse, it would depent what that something is, but generally speaking.
Mindonfire wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:There is nothing to fall "from." Just live a good and productive life while trying to keep healthy. Like the majority of human life on this planet, we will be forgotten within the next two or three generations - to be forgotten forever.
Don't lose any sleep over it; just learn to enjoy life.
How can you truly enjoy life if you are seperated from the things which make life enjoyable?
What exactly am I seperate from?
Mindonfire wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:There is nothing to fall "from." Just live a good and productive life while trying to keep healthy. Like the majority of human life on this planet, we will be forgotten within the next two or three generations - to be forgotten forever.
Don't lose any sleep over it; just learn to enjoy life.
How can you truly enjoy life if you are seperated from the things which make life enjoyable?
That's why you strive for the Hereafter, for it is better and ever-lasting.
The life of this world is nothing but a game and a diversion. The abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life if they only knew. (Qur'an, 29:64)
I mean if you look at it, you only live an average of 75 years. Half of those are spent working trying to make a living, and another 1/4 spent sleeping. There's not much left for any enjoyment.
Raul-7,
How did you come to be a Muslim? Were you born into the religion, or did you choose that path later in life?
raul quoted :
"The life of this world is nothing but a game and a diversion. The abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life if they only knew. (Qur'an, 29:64) "
if that is true , why do most religious bodies - including islam - , build expensive and monumental edifices ?
from what i see , each group is trying to outdo the other . why ?
if it is all about the "Hereafter" why this need to waste energy and money on these edifices ; surely they have no meaning in the "hereafter" ?
hbg
hbg, You bring up an excellent point about religious' "edifices." Even in the poorest of countries, one can find grand buildings with many expensive paintings, sculptures, and stain glass windows - even in the poorest of neighborhoods. I remember visiting such an edifice in India, where the dome is covered with gold, and the surrounding buildings are sub-standard for living.
Even when we look at ancient civilizations, they built temples for their gods that exceeded the normal living structures of their day.
The human animal must put their religion on a "pedestal" in order to make it more important in their lives - of a god image that is totally imagined.
c.i. :
i can understand that some people have a need to put up magnificient edifices .
i have to admit that i enjoy beautiful churches and other buildings .
i'm just a little confused
when people who believe in putting up such stuctures are saying : " the abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life " .
hmmmm ?
hbg
Oh, I enjoy most religious' buildings for the magnificence in style, skill, and beauty, and continue to enter them when opportunity is presented. Even the very old structures like the ones we still find all over the world keeps my interest unabated.
Re: Where is the Incentive?
Mindonfire wrote:Where is the Incentive?
If you thought that you will not fall because of these doctrines which have been formulated to remove all of your incentives, or if you did not realise that these doctrines are at the root of every great fall, then you did not comprehend or understand the story of Adam and Eve. And if you did not comprehend or understand the story of Adam and Eve, then you do not comprehend or understand human nature. And if you do not comprehend and understand human nature, then you do not know the purpose of the Bible. And if you do not know the purpose of the Bible, then you have no idea who or what you worship.
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Actually, the Adam and Eve storty is a great one, as far as stories go. If you choose to follow everything you've typed up then this is your business.
However, there are plenty of people in this world who are not God fearing individuals who do incredible work for others and do not preoccupy themselves with what patch of real estate they'll end up in upon their death.
hamburger wrote:raul quoted :
"The life of this world is nothing but a game and a diversion. The abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life if they only knew. (Qur'an, 29:64) "
if that is true , why do most religious bodies - including islam - , build expensive and monumental edifices ?
from what i see , each group is trying to outdo the other . why ?
if it is all about the "Hereafter" why this need to waste energy and money on these edifices ; surely they have no meaning in the "hereafter" ?
hbg
You mean the way they adorn the Mosque's, Church's, etc.? I'm not sure about other religions, but it is well known the dearest places to Allah are those where people gather to worship Him (ie. Chruche's, Mosque's).
"
if God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty." (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )
God will saviour the people who frequent these places on the Day of Judgment.
The Prophet said, "Allah will give shade, to seven, on the Day when there will be no shade but His. (These seven persons are) a just ruler, a youth who has been brought up in the worship of Allah (i.e. worships Allah sincerely from childhood), a man whose heart is attached to the mosques (i.e. to pray the compulsory prayers in the mosque in congregation), two persons who love each other only for Allah's sake and they meet and part in Allah's cause only, a man who refuses the call of a charming woman of noble birth for illicit intercourse with her and says: I am afraid of Allah, a man who gives charitable gifts so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given (i.e. nobody knows how much he has given in charity), and a person who remembers Allah in seclusion and his eyes are then flooded with tears."
However, it does not matter to Allah whether they are adorned or not - as long as they worship Him. For example, my local Mosque is a mere one-floor house that was turned into a Mosque 30 years ago and it's still in the same state as it was then.
hamburger wrote:c.i. :
i can understand that some people have a need to put up magnificient edifices .
i have to admit that i enjoy beautiful churches and other buildings .
i'm just a little confused
when people who believe in putting up such stuctures are saying : " the abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life " .
hmmmm ?
hbg
The verse simply means do not let this Wordly-life dellude you into thinking this is your only chance to live your life. This not the case, you should rather persue for the life in the Hereafter, because is better and longer-lasting. Think of this life as a 'Transit' (very brief) for the Hereafter (eternal).
Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children.
Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And forgiveness from Allah and (His) good pleasure (for the devotees of Allah).
And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Surat al-Hadid: 20)
raul : a good story .
here is one that appeared many years ago in our local news-magazine .
the story was brought back from canada's north by a physician from ouur local hospital who often spent several months a year working with aboriginals .
an old man had been living alone in his igloo for many years .
over time he had befriended some of the missionaries who were visiting throughout the north .
the missionaries of various religious groups were trying to persuade him to join their congregation .
while he kept putting them off for a while , he finally decided to make use of their wisdom .
as he met the missionaries throughout the week , he asked them to visit him in his igloo on sunday .
he told them that an important decision would be made on that day .
sunday arrived and the missionaries came to his igloo .
they were rather surprised to find that he was not meeting them individually but had invited them all at the same time .
after a bit of awkwardness , the old man spoke :
"i'm am an old man who can neither read nor write .
i have invited you , because i believe you are much more knowledgeable than i am .
you have studied much and have travelled far .
so i will leave you now and ask you to decide which of your (religious) groups i should join .
i am sure you will be able to give me the right advice .
i will be back in an hour and will accept your decision . "
i understand that the wise and learned could not agree among themselves and were unable to give the old man the advice he was looking for .
hbg
hbg, That's because that wise man was not offered buddhism.
c.i. :
remember , the old man could not read nor write .
that's why he asked the other "wise men" to help him and make a decision for him .
for some reason , they did not seem able to come to an agreement .
could it be that these "wise" men each thought that their religion is the "true and only one" ? :wink:
surely , they had more wisdom than that ? :wink:
apparently not .
hbg
One doesn't need to learn to read to become a buddhist. Since he understands the spoken language, that's all one needs to learn any religion.
Sort of along the same lines as extravagant churches/mosques/etc.
I've often wondered why people purchase bibles for $465 (
link) when you can get the same message for $0.80 (
link)
Are the messages that different? Would Jesus buy a $465 dollar bible or would he buy a $0.80 and donate the rest to charity?
maporsche wrote:Sort of along the same lines as extravagant churches/mosques/etc.
I've often wondered why people purchase bibles for $465 (
link) when you can get the same message for $0.80 (
link)
Are the messages that different? Would Jesus buy a $465 dollar bible or would he buy a $0.80 and donate the rest to charity?
I thought they give them out free? Our Mosque used to give them out free to anyone who was interested, Muslim or non-Muslim. IMO, it should be free. God sent down the message for everyone, they shouldn't put bounds on who can look it by charging $500/copy. At most it should be $5.
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