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Zoe is Sick Again

 
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:04 am
Green Witch wrote:
The fever thing is weird, it indicates some form of infection and that should be easy to verify.

.

You'd think, huh?

Nothing ever shows up. The only thing this new vet can think of is that either the infection is small and persistant and we aren't treating it long enough or that there is a pocket somewhere that isn't causing the cbc to show the infection (like a hidden staph infection)
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:46 am
Doing a quick look at the basic symptoms, I keep finding references to viral brain infections (ie: Encephalitis), although bacteria or fungus can also be to blame. The symptoms of brain infection can include any combination of lethargy, fever, confusion, behavioral and personality changes (especially aggression), loss of coordination, staggering gait, stupor, seizures and even coma. The doctor might be looking for the tick-borne rickettsial diseases which would involve problems with the spinal cord and have many similar symptoms. I'll poke around a little more and see if I can find something more specific.
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:55 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Unfortuantly, the "breeder" sucked.

When we went to get her, it was a whole different scenario. First time buyer mistake of not going to see the pups beforehand.
However, once there, we couldn't leave her there. It would have been a death sentence.

Thanks Green Witch.


Just noticed this - puppy mills are notorious for creating health problems like this. I would bet money that if you had a health history of Zoe's family you might be able to find a genic problem or a least a similar problem within the litter. Having once taken a puppy from a similar den of thieves, I totally understand why you didn't walk away. The dog was great, but died of genetic problems way before his time.

I think the confusion thing could be related to seizures. Seizures can be very stealth and often it appears something else is going on. You could mention it to your vet and see what s/he thinks.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:59 am
Green Witch wrote:
Doing a quick look at the basic symptoms, I keep finding references to viral brain infections (ie: Encephalitis), although bacteria or fungus can also be to blame. The symptoms of brain infection can include any combination of lethargy, fever, confusion, behavioral and personality changes (especially aggression), loss of coordination, staggering gait, stupor, seizures and even coma. The doctor might be looking for the tick-borne rickettsial diseases which would involve problems with the spinal cord and have many similar symptoms. I'll poke around a little more and see if I can find something more specific.


My husband and I both suspect the worst. That this is something bad.

Would it cause pain?
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 10:04 am
I had another thought, maybe it's more than one thing.

Here's the symptoms for Degenerative Disk Disease, Canine:
Pain, ataxia, loss of conscious proprioception, paresis, and paralysis are common. Occasionally dogs become anorectic. A dog with intervertebral disk degeneration, and resulting herniation, may have general symptoms including reluctance to move, decreased appetite, and crying out in pain, or hiding from others. The affected dog may stumble when attempting to walk, or be unable to rise. When the disk herniation occurs in the neck, or cervical spine, the animal may also show symptoms of stiff neck and muscle spasms, with occasional lameness and pain in one front limb. The dog may hold its head low. Infrequently, paralysis of all four limbs may occur. A dog with degeneration and herniation of a thoracolumbar disk, or a disk in the mid-to-lower back, may have an arched back, in addition to the general signs. Weakness in the rear limbs may be present, and may progress to hind-limb paralysis and incontinence, or inability to control bladder and bowel function. A severely affected dog will lose all sensation to the hindquarters.

Here's the source of the above:
Canine Spinal Disease
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 10:07 am
Wouldn't that show up on an xray?

Also, it isn't all the time. Would the symptoms come and go like they do?
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 05:50 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
Wouldn't that show up on an xray?

Also, it isn't all the time. Would the symptoms come and go like they do?


I don't know what the Xray would show or how the symptoms would come and go.

All of my research keeps coming back to either a brain disease and/or a spinal problem. No one thing matches all the symptoms.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:04 pm
I thought that while back actually. I still think it's a possibility. Perhaps we should request a scan of her head?
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:25 pm
At this point you might has well go for the works. Quite a few of her symptoms really seem brain related. The fact that she has pain on her right hip and tail would make me think they would do an MRI type scan to look for muscle or tissue damage. I assume an xray would show dislocated bone.
I wonder if any of this is connected to fact that she is a growing big dog. Maybe the vet could tell if something is not fusing correctly in her hips or tailbone area.

If she doesn't have diarrhea I wouldn't go on with the rice. Maybe try and tempt her with a little cooked chicken. If you are forcing liquids on her, I'd suggest a beef or chicken broth so she gets some protein, and for extra calories put in a teaspoon or two of olive oil.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:31 pm
Posting to say I'm impressed with your teamwork, Bella and Greenie. And to say I feel really bad this is happening and am hoping for future good news.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 07:37 pm
A herniated disk would be very easy to miss on plain radiographs, though back pain should be very apparent on physical exam, and it seems unlikely that the signs would just come and go (and with a fever, too) like that…


Thinking out loud and thumbing through a vet med textbook. Nothing more than a fellow A2Ker being sympathetic and curious and looking a few things up…


How old is Zoe? Zoe's a boxer, right?


If you're on or near the Gulf Coast or up around north Texas/Oklahoma, your vet might be thinking in terms of Hepatozoon americanum - though there should be a mild to severe elevation of white blood cells on the CBC. This is most common on the gulf coast but moves up into Oklahoma, as well. (Dunno where you liver, bella…)

Clinical signs of hepatozoonosis as described in Small Animal Internal Medicine (Nelson and Couto, 3rd ed.):

Quote:
Clinically affected dogs have been in all age-groups, but disease is most commonly recognized in puppies. Fever, weight loss, and severe hyperesthesia {exaggerated response to sensory stimulation - patiodog's off-the-cuff definition} over the paraspinal regions are common findings. Anorexia, pale mucous membranes from anemia, depression, oculonasal discharge, and bloody diarrhea occur in some dogs. Clinical signs can be intermittent and recurrent. {any typos are patiodog's, too}


More info at http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/10407.htm&word=hepatozoonosis



The episodic nature of the sickness makes me wonder about immune-mediated disease, too. Immune-mediated meningitis, for instance…

(from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/60208.htm)
Quote:
The clinical signs in Beagles, Boxers, and German Shorthaired Pointers consist of cyclic bouts of fever, severe neck pain and rigidity, reluctance to move, and depression. Each attack lasts 5-10 days, with intervening periods of complete or partial normalcy lasting ≥1 wk. During attacks, protein and neutrophils in the CSF are increased. The lesion is an arteritis, primarily of the meningeal vessels, but occasionally of other organs as well. The disease is often self-limiting over several months; attacks become milder and less frequent. Glucocorticoid therapy reduces the severity of attacks. In some animals, the disease becomes chronic and only partially amenable to therapy.



Have your vets ever considered an endocrine problem? The signs aren't exactly perfect for hypothyroidism or Addison's disease (hypoadrenocorticism), but that doesn't necessarily mean they might not be involved (slim chance though, I think). Hypothyroidism doesn't seem terribly likely given the fever, but it can be assoicated with nervous system signs (confusion, incoordination, unexpected aggression). Hypothyroid dogs may have low body temperatures and most have high serum cholesterol.

Dogs with Addison's disease may occasionally show intermittent signs (as this book puts it, "Observant owners may occasionally describe an illness with a waxing-waning or episodic course; however, this bit of information is the exception rather than the rule.") Usually signs of Addison's appear to be related to the gastrointestinal tract or, less commonly, the urinary tract, but our clinicians always warn us that Addison's is "the great pretender." By definition, dogs with Addison's should have low sodium and chloride and high potassium in the serum, but this won't be picked up in all cases. Common signs of Addison's disease include lethargy, anorexia, vomiting, and weakness. Less common signs include diarrhea, weight loss, shivering, peeing a lot, and abdominal pain.



Again, just some thoughts, maybe some things to talk about with your vet when you talk to him if he hasn't come up with anything…
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CowDoc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 07:49 pm
Signs are confusing, to say the least. Be warned that elevated temperature does not always indicate infection. Pain alone can raise body temperature. This type of moving pain can be due to autoimmune disease. Has your vet ruled out lupus?
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 07:51 pm
Get thee to an ANA and RF test, eh? Was a thought, too, under the blanket of immune-mediated.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 07:52 pm
And I used to do those tests in the early days of them, so here's a third vote.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:04 pm
Are you sure about the location of the pain? (You probably are, I know...)

(from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/91506.htm)
Quote:
Panosteitis is a spontaneous, self-limiting disease of young, rapidly growing, large and giant dogs that primarily affects the diaphyses and metaphyses of long bone.
...
Clinical signs are acute, cyclical, and involve single or multiple bone(s) in dogs 6-16 mo old. Animals are lame, febrile, inappetent, and have palpable long bone pain.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:30 pm
Thanks everyone...this is awesome. It's nice to have some feedback and support on this.

We live in Michigan.

I mentioned immune issues as well as thryoid issues. The vet thinks it's unlikely but if I press the issue, I am sure they'd be more than happy to take my money for the test. Laughing

ANA? RF? What are those? Lupus...we haven't talked about at all. Does it sound like it could be? Seriously, I am open to any possibilities. We've spent nearly $2000 to come to the conclusion that we don't know anything.

The vet did warn us that fever can be caused by pain. The issue becomes then, what is causing the pain and why does it come and go?

She is almost normal tonight. Literally, from trying to bite me this morning to playing with her ball tonight. Bouncing around and acting like a normal dog. I am scratching my head and wondering what the hell is going on.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:40 pm
Oh I should also mention, in case it matters...
She just had a staph infection on her skin that was widespread over her belly, neck, face and back. It was treated but we saw a few of the "zits" on her back tonight. Might not be gone yet.... Confused

As well, her WBC count is always fine. Never elevated, never low.

Oh, and she's had an eye infection and ear infection too.

And there was the issues with her stomach awhile back. The puking and uncontrollable pooping...which have since resolved.

And all of this started 2-3 weeks following her spaying. She hasn't been right since.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:49 pm
RF stands for rheumatoid factor and ANA stands for antinuclear antibody, used to be called ANF, antinuclear factor. Those antibodies show up at low levels in many people, and are considered positive over a certain titration level. They are found in several autoimmune diseases, including lupus, and within the diseases, the levels tend to vary, and within the ANA's, what the fluorescence picks up can vary. I'm am thinking this is not what is going on with Zoe, but y'never know. There is an antithryroid antibody as well, if I remember correctly, and I've no idea if it's found in dogs.

I also don't know if there is now a collagen disease panel or immune disease panel available at labs. I was an early tech in an international immunology reference lab, after I'd been a research tech at an immuno lab, but that was decades ago and I know nada now. The tests can really add up re cost, so it makes sense that the veterinarian will look at the most likely things first, whatever he/she/they deem it to be. I also don't know if there are vet reference labs... Cowdoc and Patiodawg will know that, natch.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:50 pm
Bella, I'm just reading through this. It's a bit painful for me. I assume your new vet knows about the staph infection, yes? I would consider a long-term antibiotic. But, would staph cause pain?

My boxer, Boo, had some unexpalined ailments as well. I didn't have her undergo extensive testing, though, as everyone was pretty much on the same page with her probable diagnosis (degenerative nerve disease - does not sound at all likely to be Zoe's problem).
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 08:52 pm
My old business partner's dobie has that staph skin thing... (no help on that myself).
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