Sir Elton John -- King of Tolerance

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Well, Elton is sure to be a hero to many on this forum. I have heard similar sentiments from many of the 'tolerant' crowd here.

So let's have a show of hands -- how many of you are 'tolerant' folk believe like EJ and would support a legal ban on all organized religion?

Notice that he condemns religion for promoting 'hatred', but apparently doesn't see he call to criminalize organized religious practice as 'hateful'.

Where is the disconnect in this man's brain, and in the brain of those who agree with him?

How can they spout against 'hatred' and fail to see their own?

Now let's be clear. It's ORGANIZED religion that he thinks should be criminal, not PRIVATE belief. Participation in public, organized services is the issue here.[/u][/i]

So let's compare apples with apples:

I don't know of any Christians who are calling for criminal charges against any who DON'T participate in organized religion.

Do you?

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6140710.stm

Quote:

Sir Elton: Ban organised religion

Sir Elton John has said he would like to see all organised religion banned and accused it of trying to "turn hatred towards gay people".

Organised religion lacked compassion and turned people into "hateful lemmings", he told the Observer.

But the musician said he loved the idea of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the beautiful stories about it which he had learned at Sunday school.

And he said there were many gays he knew who loved their religion.

'Doesn't work'

His comments were made in a special gay edition of the Observer Music Monthly Magazine, where he was interviewed by Scissor Sisters' Jake Shears.

"I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people," he said. "Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.

"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion."

According to the singer-songwriter, 59, his solution would be to "ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it".

He added: "I love the idea of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the beautiful stories about it, which I loved in Sunday school and I collected all the little stickers and put them in my book.

"But the reality is that organised religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."

He also said that the problems experienced by many gays in former nations of the Soviet bloc, such as Poland, Latvia and Russia were caused by the church supporting anti-gay movements.

'God's people'

And he called on the leaders of major religions to hold a "conclave" to discuss the fate of the world - which he said was "near escalating to World War Three".

"I said this after 9/11 and people thought I was nuts," he said. "It's all got to be dialogue - that's the only way. Get everybody from each religion together and say 'Listen, this can't go on. Why do we have all this hatred?'

"We are all God's people; we have to get along and the [religious leaders] have to lead the way. If they don't do it, who else is going to do it? They're not going to do it and it's left to musicians or to someone else to deal with it."

He also said he would continue to campaign for gay rights.

"I'm going to fight for them, whether I do it silently behind the scenes or so vocally that I get locked up."

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Re: Sir Elton John -- King of Tolerance

real life wrote:

How can they spout against 'hatred' and fail to see their own?

To answer this question Real Life you need to look into a mirror.

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I am a Buddhist. I never see the words "hatred" and "Buddhism" together. A religion is only as good as the people who practice it.

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Philip Wylie once wrote: "It is said I have been hard on churches. I would be harder. I would close them down." He also called for locking Bibles away, to be opened and studied in the somewhat distant future, as a portion of the study of the madness of our times. I don't know that I would go that far, but churches certainly ought to butt out of other folks' business, when uninvited.

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Elton is a major musical hero of mine...otherwise, I don't take much stock in what he advocates or dislikes.

I do see and understand his point though.

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If I thought it had any chance of succeeding, I might agree. But I don't. Making it illegal would only make it stronger and even more dangerous.

(And they would probably tell you themselves that if it was illegal, it would no doubt lead to stronger crimes like drugs, and then theft, and then murder, and then sex and maybe even dancing. It's a slippery slope.)

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Eorl wrote:

If I thought it had any chance of succeeding, I might agree.

Yes I am quite aware of your totalitarian views.

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Whether he's right or wrong, Elton's making a bit of a generalization here-exactly what he bridles against when it's done to him, as a gay male. I'm surprised to hear him advocating banning anything that has to do with belief, choice, life-style, etc. That's a little like the pot calling the kettle black and cutting off your nose to spite your face because once you start banning one thing, it gets easier for people to advocate banning others. And I'd hazard a guess that there are a whole lot more people willing to ban homosexual activity, marriage, etc., than there are willing to ban organized religion.

Are people who practice an organized religion necessarily more homophobic? And are the religious homophobes the ones who tend to follow up their homophobia with violence?
I think tolerance toward anything and the ability to mind your own business and live and let live has more to do with personality type than religious affiliation.

Because in organized religion, as in life, those with a certain personality type tend to focus on one aspect of an issue, while those with another tend to focus on another. Religious homophobes would be homophobes whether they were religious or not. They just wouldn't have a bible verse to attach to their hatred.

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aidan wrote:

Whether he's right or wrong, Elton's making a bit of a generalization here-exactly what he bridles against when it's done to him, as a gay male. I'm surprised to hear him advocating banning anything that has to do with belief, choice, life-style, etc. That's a little like the pot calling the kettle black and cutting off your nose to spite your face because once you start banning one thing, it gets easier for people to advocate banning others. And I'd hazard a guess that there are a whole lot more people willing to ban homosexual activity, marriage, etc., than there are willing to ban organized religion.

Are people who practice an organized religion necessarily more homophobic? And are the religious homophobes the ones who tend to follow up their homophobia with violence?
I think tolerance toward anything and the ability to mind your own business and live and let live has more to do with personality type than religious affiliation.

Because in organized religion, as in life, those with a certain personality type tend to focus on one aspect of an issue, while those with another tend to focus on another. Religious homophobes would be homophobes whether they were religious or not. They just wouldn't have a bible verse to attach to their hatred.

Yes, I agree with you that he's a hypocrite. I just wanted to see how many agreed with him.

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I don't agree with him, but I'm not someone who would make blanket statements about any population of people and advocate totally banning anything, unless I had proof that it was the cause of widespread harm.

Because I truly wonder how accurate it is for him to say that organized religion is to blame for homophobia in the world. I think that's an easy assumption to make, but I wonder if it's actually true.

Are there any statistics or studies done on who actually perpetrates violence against homosexuals and what their religious beliefs and affiliations are? Or is he just going on the fact that Christian groups are the most vocal in protesting gay marriage?

I do agree that Christian rhetoric in the wrong hands can influence certain idiots who already have certain leanings, but that's true of any rhetoric, of whatever stripe.

I also agree that religious leaders should step up and lead the way for peace, and in a perfect world, that might work. But how does he expect anyone to listen to them, when he himself is headlining the fact that he believes they're full of **** and their life's work should be banned?

I think he's confused and angry and spouting off, so I tend not to take what he's saying that much to heart. I'd be more likely to take him seriously if he'd take the thousands of pounds he spends on glasses and flowers and used it to achieve something for these causes he says he believes in and seems to care so much about. He could really have an impact if he chose to.

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Re: Sir Elton John -- King of Tolerance
I think EJ's apparent call to ban organised religion (somehow that important news, ho hum, had passed me by), is madness, of course.

On the other hand, so is this question:

real life wrote:

So let's compare apples with apples:

I don't know of any Christians who are calling for criminal charges against any who DON'T participate in organized religion.

Do you?

NOT apples and apples.

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http://shoutluton.com/attractions/images/strawman.jpg

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Good to see you back, Set. I thought you had sworn us off.

I find the subject of the demise of organized religion to be quite timely, but for reasons other than those relevant to EJ.

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Elton John is a candle in the wind--his opinions mean nothing to anyone other than himself and his sycophants.

Organized religion is, unfortunately, alive and well. I can think of few notions more idiotic than that organized religion should be outlawed. I can think of few notions more likely to promote adherence to organized religion than that it be legally prohibited.

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Elton is a legend is his own mind.

I agree with Setanta's last two statements.

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I'm not a big Elton fan but I agree with him on this one. Religion causes war, plain and simple.

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setanta said

Quote:

Elton John is a candle in the wind--his opinions mean nothing to anyone other than himself and his sycophants.

Organized religion is, unfortunately, alive and well. I can think of few notions more idiotic than that organized religion should be outlawed. I can think of few notions more likely to promote adherence to organized religion than that it be legally prohibited.

but I also agree with that too. I just think religion causes more trouble than it's worth.

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Dorothy Parker wrote:

setanta said

Quote:
Elton John is a candle in the wind--his opinions mean nothing to anyone other than himself and his sycophants.

Organized religion is, unfortunately, alive and well. I can think of few notions more idiotic than that organized religion should be outlawed. I can think of few notions more likely to promote adherence to organized religion than that it be legally prohibited.

but I also agree with that too. I just think religion causes more trouble than it's worth.

So does homosexuality. Let's ban it!

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Organized religion hasn't brought anything positive into my life.

A number of gay people have been marvellous contributors to various aspects of my life.

If I had to choose whether I'd prefer more organized religion, or more gay friends, I'd definitely go with more gay friends.

Banning organized religion, not so much a great idea. Ignoring it as much as possible is more sensible I think. I can be optimistic that it'll eventually wither away from inattention.

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ehBeth wrote:

Organized religion hasn't brought anything positive into my life.

A number of gay people have been marvellous contributors to various aspects of my life.

If I had to choose whether I'd prefer more organized religion, or more gay friends, I'd definitely go with more gay friends.

Banning organized religion, not so much a great idea. Ignoring it as much as possible is more sensible I think. I can be optimistic that it'll eventually wither away from inattention.

Really? Well, I know a lot of people who, through their organized religion, do and have done a lot of good and positive things for me and for others.

On the other hand, I don't know of any gay people who have been marvelous contributors to various aspects of my life ... at least not by virtue of the fact that they were/are gay. In other words, their gayness has not enhanced my life.

So -- following ehbeth's line of reasoning -- if I had to choose whether I'd prefer more organized religion, or more gay people, I'd definitely go with more organized religion.

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Sir Elton John -- King of Tolerance

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