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Would moral facts give us reasons for action?

 
 
agrote
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 06:24 am
Moral realism is the view that there are moral facts. A moral realist believes that moral statements attempt to describe the world, and they are therefore the sorts of statements that can be true or false (this is called cognitivism). Moral realists not only believe that it is possible for moral statements to be true, but they also believe that some of them are true.

According to the correspondance theory of truth, a proposition is true if there is a fact (a fact is a state of affairs), that corresponds to it and makes it true. For example, the sentence "I am sitting on a chair" is true if and only if I am sitting on a chair.

If we accept the correspondence theory of truth, it seems that for moral realism to be true, there needs to be such a thing as a moral fact. There need to be facts in the world which somehow make some moral statements true.

But these facts would be different to other sorts of facts. Unlike the fact that I am sitting on a chair, a moral fact would give us reasons to act in a certain way. If it is a fact that it is wrong to torture babies for fun, then we have a reason to not torture babies for fun. Maybe if we don't know the moral fact, we don't have a reason to refrain from the action. But certainly if it is true that torturing babies for fun is morally wrong, and if I know that it is true, then I have a reason to refrain from torturing babies for fun.

Maybe I don't care that it is wrong to torture babies for fun, so even though I believe that it is wrong, I do it anyway. In that case, don't I still have a reason not to torture babies for fun, even if I ignore that reason or it fails to motivate me? It seems that if moral realism is true and moral facts exist, those facts, or at least the knowledge of those facts, would always give us reasons to act in certain ways (even if they didn't actually motivate us to act in certain ways). Believing that something is wrong is almost like being told "don't do that!" Whether you choose to obey your moral belief, or whether it moves you in any way, is another matter; your moral belief still tells you to act in a certain way.

If there are moral facts, they have reason-giving qualities. This differentiates them from other sorts of facts, such as the fact that I am sitting on a chair, which do not direct our action in the same way.

Do people agree with this? Would moral facts give us reasons for action?

Moral realists seem to be faced with the difficulty of explaining how such strange, reason-giving facts would fit in with our world. I intend to argue that this difficulty is a reason to be sceptical about moral realism. It seems that it would be easier to deny the existence of moral facts than to explain their strange, reason-giving qualities. It may still be true that there are moral facts, even if they are strange things; but an anti-realist picture of morality is arguably less strange, and it should therefore be taken very seriously.
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flakker
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:56 pm
if someone was clubbing me with the baseball bat of persecution and idealism do i have reason to reply with the iron pipe kneecapping of justice, righteousness and patriotism?
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:45 am
Depends what your moral beliefs are.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Nov, 2006 09:20 am
Re: Would moral facts give us reasons for action?
Still working on the "dissertation," eh agrote?

It seems that you're positing moral realism as the only alternative to moral relativism, which runs the risk of falling into the fallacy of the excluded middle. If you are intent on attacking moral realism, though, you should learn more about it. I can recommend Brink's Moral Realism and the Foundations of Ethics as a good start.

agrote wrote:
But these facts would be different to other sorts of facts. Unlike the fact that I am sitting on a chair, a moral fact would give us reasons to act in a certain way.

Well, the fact that you are sitting in a chair also gives us reasons to act in certain ways. For instance, it would provide a compelling reason for me not to sit in that chair. The difference is that moral facts incline us to act in morally relevant ways, whereas non-moral facts do not.

agrote wrote:
Maybe I don't care that it is wrong to torture babies for fun, so even though I believe that it is wrong, I do it anyway. In that case, don't I still have a reason not to torture babies for fun, even if I ignore that reason or it fails to motivate me?

Of course you do. Just because people act immorally does not mean that there is no morality.

agrote wrote:
It seems that if moral realism is true and moral facts exist, those facts, or at least the knowledge of those facts, would always give us reasons to act in certain ways (even if they didn't actually motivate us to act in certain ways). Believing that something is wrong is almost like being told "don't do that!" Whether you choose to obey your moral belief, or whether it moves you in any way, is another matter; your moral belief still tells you to act in a certain way.

I think that's correct.

agrote wrote:
If there are moral facts, they have reason-giving qualities. This differentiates them from other sorts of facts, such as the fact that I am sitting on a chair, which do not direct our action in the same way.

The fact that you are sitting in a chair does have reason-giving qualities. They just may not be morally relevant reasons.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Nov, 2006 11:02 am
Does the chair really exist?

Why can't a moral truth be just as real/unreal as the chair? It is all in personal perception. We are acting on what we perceive to be real.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Nov, 2006 06:12 pm
Re: Would moral facts give us reasons for action?
joefromchicago wrote:
Still working on the "dissertation," eh agrote?


It's a dissertation, not a "dissertation". What are you trying to imply?

You seem to agree with most of what I said. Over the past five days I've decided to take a different line of argument, at least for now. So I won't bother responding to your comments. I haven't read Brink's book, but I've read his essay on Mackie's sceptical arguments. The only part of it that I agree with is the part that says Mackie gives insufficient support for his claim that moral realism is committed to what Brink calls "internalism" (not what I would call internalism).

My current line of argument is that the strange facts that moral realism is commited to are intrinsically motivating facts. This is sort of what Mackie argues, but I'm arguing for it in a different way. I'm going to claim that motivational internalism and the humean theory of motivation are both true (I haven't actually done this yet - it might be difficult).

It should follow from those two theses that moral judgements must involve means-to-end beliefs and most importantly, desires. Since moral realism claims that some moral judgements are made simply by recognising moral facts, with no involvement of desires, moral realism is false. I will argue that the only way the realist can avoid this conclusion is by denying the humean theory of motivation, and saying that moral facts are special in that our recognition of them can motivate us without the involvement of desires.

The moralist must claim that moral facts have some intrinsic motivating quality. I will claim that we have good reason to believe that no such facts exist, and therefore we have good reason to believe that moral realism is false.
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