Tipping Etiquette

Mame wrote:

However, I reserve the right to give absolutely nothing for crap service or attitude.

Yes you do and I certainly approve of tipping less for poor service. It would take a whole lot for me to not tip at all, but I certainly support tipping less for poor service and have never stated otherwise. My contention has been with people that do not tip at all. If you are not one of those persons then you shouldn't take offense to my statement.

Mame wrote:

It is our money, after all.

Yes it is. And you are chosing to spend it at a restaurant where tipping is expected. If you don't want to tip, you could choose to eat at a place where tipping is not expected or eat at home.

0 Replies

cjhsa wrote:

Your willingness to give everything up to goverment regulation never ceases to offend me.

What's it to you?

0 Replies

I didn't know this at all: the only poeple here who really live from "tips" are the personal in Casinos (besides those, who are civil servants): they are completely and one and all (from the toilet-woman to the manager) paid from tips via the 'tronc system'.

0 Replies

cjh is "offended." LOL

0 Replies

nimh wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
Your willingness to give everything up to goverment regulation never ceases to offend me.

What's it to you?

Dunno. What is it to those millions of Americans who gave up their lives to save European democracy, twice over? Dunno.

0 Replies

America did not join the war to save European democracy; they joined the war because of the attack on Pearl Harbour. They declared war on Japan, who was part of the Triple Alliance, with Italy and Germany.

0 Replies

Linkat wrote:

nimh wrote:

But then I do become angry in the same logic Reyn described: there's something truly bizarro in individual customers having to make up with oversized tips for employers refusing to pay a decent living wage.

In the long run only political action can correct that - higher minimum wages, and stricter enforcement on companies dodging the law on that.

But in the short term, what can you do - punish the waitress for her employer not paying a decent wage by not giving her the oversized tip that would compensate? Thats not right either.

The one thing though - if you put in place a huge cultural change like minimum wage and no tipping for waitstaff - you can expect:

Food prices to increase (you won't be tipping, but you will pay more for food)
Potential for service quality to decrease (little incentive to give extra service to customers)

You're putting words in my mouth - I never said anything about "no tipping" at all. I've already talked at length about the kind of tips one is expected to give here, and what I give.

What I'm talking about is what several of you already admitted - that in the US, you kind of have to give oversized tips (not just a little extra, and not, say, 10% either, not even 15%, but 20%+) because waitresses get such ridiculously low wages - and they get such low wages because the employer is counting on the consumer to make up for it with 20%+ tips.

It's a vicious cycle. Considering thats just the way it works now, I would also just start giving 20% tips if I lived in the US - no sense in punishing the waitress for the system being effed up. But I agree with Reyn that there's something unfair and wrong about it at base. The employer should just pay a decent living wage. A hard-working employee should not have to depend on the generosity of customers to earn a wage (s)he can actually live on - it should be a given. Tips are supposed to be a reward for good service, not a basis requirement just so a waitress earns enough to live on.

The fact that it is, also undermines your argument that service quality would decrease if you upped the minimum wage and decreased the share of the tip in the total earnings. You say it would leave little incentive to give extra service to customers. But at the moment, from what I understand from your posts, it is standard to give 20% tips - only a cheapskate would not do so. So waiters get that much regardless of whether service is regular or particularly good (perhaps only not if they are outright bad). So there's no incentive to be particularly good implicit in that standard level at all. The incentive to not just provide OK, but particularly good service is in the margin on top of the standard tip -in your case, an extra large tip of 25-30%.

That's the same here. There's no change in that incentive whatsoever if, with the minimum wage upped so waitresses are guaranteed at least a decent living wage in any case, the standard tip anyone providing regular service gets becomes 10%, and the reward for particularly good service is in the margin on top of that . In an extra large tip of 15%-20%, for example, kinda the way it is here. The margin of extra reward would remain the same.

0 Replies

cjhsa wrote:

nimh wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Your willingness to give everything up to goverment regulation never ceases to offend me.

What's it to you?

Dunno. What is it to those millions of Americans who gave up their lives to save European democracy, twice over? Dunno.

The US soldiers gave their lives to save us from government regulation? What, they gave their blood to keep us free from a government-legislated minimum wage? Laughing

And there I was thinking it had something to do with Nazi Germany occupying most of Europe and Japan attacking the US fleet...

Yes, with a little leeway you can say that they gave their lives to secure us democracy - fine, we've got democracy, we get to decide ourselves on what kind of society we want - and we want one where people are guaranteed a decent living wage. So we vote in governments that establish a decent mininum wage. That IS democracy, right there.

0 Replies

Why not just have them establish some tipping regulations while you're at it?

0 Replies

I totally agree to what nimh says - it really is the same here ... with most people (including me).

0 Replies

Mame wrote:

When I was a waitress, barmaid and bartender, I found American tourists to be cheap; they also complained loudly and frequently.

Oooh yes.. American tourists tend to be loud to our standards too... demanding and complaining...

Mame wrote:

Tips may be expected, but they are not mandatory. You speak as if a tip is OWED. What if the person cannot afford a tip? Who is the judge and jury on that one? If the service is abysmal, should they still be tipped?

Well, the latter is easy - if the service is abysmal, no tip, or a symbolically small one. I'm sure thats the same everywhere.

But on the other thing I disagree with you. If you cant afford a 10% tip, go to a 10% cheaper restaurant. Simple as that. We can all only live at the level of our own wages. Going to the more expensive place and managing to afford that by skimping on the tip is like living above your level and making the poor waitress (most likely poorer than you) pay for it.

Course there's exceptions - the poor kid who saved up to go this once to that place he was never able to go to, but can only just manage it, Christmas stories like that - but in general, if one is able to afford the food, but argues that somehow that 10% extra for the service is just too much, that sounds disingenuous to me.

0 Replies

nimh wrote:

What I'm talking about is what several of you already admitted - that in the US, you kind of have to give oversized tips (not just a little extra, and not, say, 10% either, not even 15%, but 20%+) because waitresses get such ridiculously low wages - and they get such low wages because the employer is counting on the consumer to make up for it with 20%+ tips.

A 20% tip is considered more than fair. You can give more if you want. A 15% tip is considered sufficient for good service and less than that for poor service.

nimh wrote:

It's a vicious cycle. Considering thats just the way it works now, I would also just start giving 20% tips if I lived in the US - no sense in punishing the waitress for the system being effed up. But I agree with Reyn that there's something unfair and wrong about it at base. The employer should just pay a decent living wage. A hard-working employee should not have to depend on the generosity of customers to earn a wage (s)he can actually live on - it should be a given. Tips are supposed to be a reward for good service, not a basis requirement just so a waitress earns enough to live on.

The thing you don't seem to be understanding is, a "fair wage" would be a decrease in overall pay for many servers. You want to "give" everyone a decent living wage and I want to reward good service with a good tip.

nimh wrote:

The fact that it is, also undermines your argument that service quality would decrease if you upped the minimum wage and decreased the share of the tip in the total earnings. You say it would leave little incentive to give extra service to customers. But at the moment, from what I understand from your posts, it is standard to give 20% tips - only a cheapskate would not do so. So waiters get that much regardless of whether service is regular or particularly good (perhaps only not if they are outright bad). So there's no incentive to be particularly good implicit in that standard level at all. The incentive to not just provide OK, but particularly good service is in the margin on top of the standard tip -in your case, an extra large tip of 25-30%.

Your assumptions are wrong.

nimh wrote:

That's the same here. There's no change in that incentive whatsoever if, with the minimum wage upped so waitresses are guaranteed at least a decent living wage in any case, the standard tip anyone providing regular service gets becomes 10%, and the reward for particularly good service is in the margin on top of that . In an extra large tip of 15%-20%, for example, kinda the way it is here. The margin of extra reward would remain the same.

These percentages are already the norm... not the overflated ones in your previous paragraph. So now you want us to pay a higher wage and the same tip rtate we are already paying. No thanks.

0 Replies

nimh wrote:

Oooh yes.. American tourists tend to be loud to our standards too... demanding and complaining...

You sound like a union flight attendant. A female one, chatting in the back of the plane while folks are dying for something to drink. Lousy service demands complaint...

0 Replies

you know....ususally I just throw some change in the tip jar.

0 Replies

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

The thing you don't seem to be understanding is, a "fair wage" would be a decrease in overall pay for many servers. You want to "give" everyone a decent living wage and I want to reward good service with a good tip.

Straw man. Same one as Linkat just used, in fact - which I pointed out in the very post you are responding.

I never talked about abolishing tips.

Tips are part of life, and will always be, and thats a good thing, because as you say - good service deserves a good tip.

So can we have it be enough with the "I want to reward good service with a good tip [and you dont]" nonsense? Thank you.

Now, to address your point, a "fair wage" would NOT be a decrease in overall pay for many servers, because they would still be getting a tip - as I explained in the very post you are responding to.

Consumers just wouldnt feel like they have to give an extra large tip - larger than most anywhere else in the world, in any case, and larger than they'd give if they knew the waitress was earning a decent wage - because they know that the actual wages the waitresses are getting are so shamefully low.

Cause that's what happens now, several US posters in this thread have pointed that out - it'd be cheapskatish to give no tip or a low tip because thats what the waitresses live on. And that's wrong. They should earn enough to live on in any case.

What I argue is:

1. Ensure that everyone gets at least a decent living wage, and doesnt have to depend on the generosity of consumers just to earn enough to live on; and

2. Return the tips to their original role as an incentive for good service, for kindness and effort.

And yes, as long as it doesnt work like that, I'll give low-paid waitresses an extra tip too, of course. Its not their fault that the system is F'd up, like I said.

But this is what I'd like to see. Dont sound so unreasonable to me.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

nimh wrote:
That's the same here. There's no change in that incentive whatsoever if, with the minimum wage upped so waitresses are guaranteed at least a decent living wage in any case, the standard tip anyone providing regular service gets becomes 10%, and the reward for particularly good service is in the margin on top of that . In an extra large tip of 15%-20%, for example, kinda the way it is here. The margin of extra reward would remain the same.

These percentages are already the norm... not the overflated ones in your previous paragraph.

I'm going on the numbers that your fellow-American posters have posted in this thread. Take it up with them.

A 10% tip is usual here, not cheapskatish. There, judging on the posts in this thread (and previous ones), it would be, because it would leave waiters with less than a decent wage. And that's wrong - well, see above.

0 Replies

Joeblow wrote:

Didn't mean to offend or point fingers - I never actually said Canadians didn't tip; but now have clarity of why in the restaurants that Canadians have a reputation of not tipping well. More of a cultural difference or a non-understanding of the US restaurant system as opposed to being cheap. We took a Canadian friend to the restaurant my husband was managing. This friend offered to leave the tip as I paid. My husband ran to me as we were leaving and said - did we have a problem or something with the service as the tip was so low. I said no it was great - that was when I heard from my husband of low tipping Canadians.

I literally don't know a soul who doesn't tip in these parts (though some are and can afford to be more generous than others) so if you visit us (please do!), I'd hate for you to think it's unusual to leave a gratuity.

Maybe times have changed, but I saw no difference between American and Canadian tippers back when I was in the industry. There wasn't a cultural difference or lack of understanding in this area, IMO. Your Canadian buddy left a crappy tip is all...not indicative of "Canadians."[/quote]

I'm not sure it if could be regional or not in Canada - I know that a lot of things are regional in nature in the US, however, this is just the impression my husband had. I don't think it was intentional or cheapness, just perhaps differences in cultural and understanding of wages in US vs Canada.

I previously had dated a man that had a Chinese father and his dad was a horrible tipper. Usually we ate in Chinatown when his dad came with us and he would also say, don't leave that much - they don't expect much in a tip.

I also know I have made similar mistakes in visiting other countries - usually I end up tipping too much or in a situation I'm not supposed to - I have got many strange looks before. I do try to read up on the culture/tips/etc before hand, but well, I guess it is expected that you cannot know all customs when visiting.

0 Replies

nimh wrote:

What I argue is:

1. Ensure that everyone gets at least a decent living wage, and doesnt have to depend on the generosity of consumers just to earn enough to live on; and

2. Return the tips to their original role as an incentive for good service, for kindness and effort.

And yes, as long as it doesnt work like that, I'll give low-paid waitresses an extra tip too, of course. Its not their fault that the system is F'd up, like I said.

But this is what I'd like to see. Dont sound so unreasonable to me.

1,) Define "decent living wage." How much should a waitress get paid per hour?

2.) What percentage should the server get paid under this new system?

0 Replies

best tip i ever gave was to a lady washroom attentand in st. petersburg .
we were visitingthe hermitage museum and i "had to go - in a hurry " .
found the washroom quickly ... looong lineup !
the rather large lady in charge of the men's washroom kept things in pretty good order ... but there were too many guys ahead of me ! what to do ?
i whipped out a dollar bill , pressed it her hand and she immediately took me in tow !
she experly dragged me behind her while shoving the other guys waiting aside .
she managed to arrive at the sacred door at just the right moment , moved in quickly , led me in the door before the other guys realized what was going on !
when i came out , she had a big smile and a "thank you , sir ! ' for me .
now , that was service when needed :wink: !
she sure was worth the dollar ... and then some .
(i gave a dollar bill to mrs h who was waiting on the ladies side : instant success :wink: ).
hbg

0 Replies

Linkat wrote:

Didn't mean to offend or point fingers - I never actually said Canadians didn't tip; but now have clarity of why in the restaurants that Canadians have a reputation of not tipping well.
More of a cultural difference or a non-understanding of the US restaurant system as opposed to being cheap. We took a Canadian friend to the restaurant my husband was managing. This friend offered to leave the tip as I paid. My husband ran to me as we were leaving and said - did we have a problem or something with the service as the tip was so low. I said no it was great - that was when I heard from my husband of low tipping Canadians.

I've buggered the quotes before too, Linkat, no worries, but I fixed it, ok?

Anyway, I was just trying to address those generalised comments of yours (I've noted them in red).

0 Replies

Joeblow wrote:

Linkat wrote:

Didn't mean to offend or point fingers - I never actually said Canadians didn't tip; but now have clarity of why in the restaurants that Canadians have a reputation of not tipping well.
More of a cultural difference or a non-understanding of the US restaurant system as opposed to being cheap. We took a Canadian friend to the restaurant my husband was managing. This friend offered to leave the tip as I paid. My husband ran to me as we were leaving and said - did we have a problem or something with the service as the tip was so low. I said no it was great - that was when I heard from my husband of low tipping Canadians.

I've buggered the quotes before too, Linkat, no worries, but I fixed it, ok?

Anyway, I was just trying to address those generalised comments of yours (I've noted them in red).

I agree it is a generalization, but unfortunately that is the image that many have here in the restaurant business. We all know that it isn't true of all.

0 Replies

Tipping Etiquette

Quick Links

My Account

able2know