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Sat 28 Oct, 2006 03:19 am
Often I reminisce about my college days when a group of us took to the practice of quontology, or quontism, the worship of the quantum as the quintessential force of the universe. Often in our barleycorn reveries, one or another of us would spontaneously break out with the sign of the 'Q', done right handed and clockwise, ending with a ritualistic flourish defining the tail of the 'Q'.
As I look back on it now, I think it obvious that we sophmorons were not far from a universal truth; for if there exists a defining force, a principle or basis for the cosmos, then we are surely subject to it just as is the largest planet or smallest atom. And, lacking free will, we are most certainly slaves to that principle or force, slaves in our acts of biological homeostasis and slaves in our moral outcome.
Should that basic principle or force happen to have a free will of its own, a personality, then we can be said to have been created by it (him?, her?) for some purpose. If we are not endowed with free will, then that purpose can only be as slaves to the whim of the creator, slaves in our physical necessity and slaves in our moral irrelevance.
On the other hand, if we also have free will apart from our physical necessities, then the creator has indeed given us the greatest of all possible gifts. If we are slaves to him, we are slaves out of choice, slaves by our recognition of his incomparable intelligence and love, slaves out of willing submission to his rightful universal sovereignty.
Many questions, however, remain. Why would such a sublimely benevolent creator allow us to die? Where did war and crime and sickness originate? Are we slaves to these as well?
Re: Are we to be slaves of God?
neologist wrote: Why would such a sublimely benevolent creator allow us to die?
What is wrong with death? Who wants to be static? Death is need for life. Death is needed for evolution and change. Death is needed for balance. Death is needed for remembrance. Man doesn't change until he witnesses mass death.
neologist wrote:Where did war and crime and sickness originate? Are we slaves to these as well?
1. Man
2. Evidently, man just can't stop killing and stealing.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
neologist wrote:well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
Yes, and that's why you should prepare for the eternal afterlife where depending on where you end up - you will never die or age.
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you are in impregnable fortresses. (Surat an-Nisa': 78)
Yet still you prefer the life of the world when the Hereafter is better and longer lasting. (Surat al-A'la: 16-17)
Raul-7 wrote:neologist wrote:well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
Yes, and that's why you should prepare for the eternal afterlife where depending on where you end up - you will never die or age.
Well, considering the fact that when you are dead you are dead, period, that would be impossible.
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:6)
Not that I mind straying off the topic, but doesn't anyone have anything to say about the idea that our service to God might be considered slavery?
neologist wrote:Raul-7 wrote:neologist wrote:well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
Yes, and that's why you should prepare for the eternal afterlife where depending on where you end up - you will never die or age.
Well, considering the fact that when you are dead you are dead, period, that would be impossible.
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:6)
Not that I mind straying off the topic, but doesn't anyone have anything to say about the idea that our service to God might be considered slavery?
Yes, we are considered servants of our Creator.
And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should serve Me (Alone). (Quran 51:56)
What do you mean slavery? You're not forced to worship God, he gave you the choice. I do not see why you are technically a slave, we actually depend on God - he does not depend on us. You owe him a lot, especially since he made you (I assume) a normal healthy, well-educated well-paid human being as opposed to being a starving child in Africa who suffers from AIDS, malaria and is on the verge of death.
He has given you everything you have asked Him for. If you tried to number Allah's blessings, you could never count them. Man is indeed wrongdoing, ungrateful. (Surah Ibrahim: 34)
neologist wrote:well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
Death can never cease to exist in the sense that most Christians think, it is part of the cycle of life. Now unless you plan to find a new way of extracting energy for food, there will have to be some sort of death.
neologist wrote:Raul-7 wrote:neologist wrote:well, since you profess to believe in the bible, Mindy, you must remember that death is referred to as man's enemy, a condition which will cease to exist.
Yes, and that's why you should prepare for the eternal afterlife where depending on where you end up - you will never die or age.
Well, considering the fact that when you are dead you are dead, period, that would be impossible.
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:6)
Not that I mind straying off the topic, but doesn't anyone have anything to say about the idea that our service to God might be considered slavery?
Well who could ask for a better master? What is wrong with being subservient to the giver of life?
Neologist - In terms of service to God being considered slavery-slavery connotes a condition that is enforced or not entered into willingly. Most people who serve a god have made a conscious and willing choice to do so. In fact, at least in terms of the Christian God that I'm familiar with - I think I remember that was a defining factor of true service - that it be done willingly.
Slavery also connnotes work or service without adequate or fair repayment. I think most people who believe they are serving God also feel that they receive rewards (or adequate payment) while on earth, and if that is not the case, for example, those who are persecuted on earth for worshiping or serving a god, they tend to believe that eventually they will receive even greater rewards in an afterlife.
@aidan,
aidan wrote:Neologist - In terms of service to God being considered slavery-slavery connotes a condition that is enforced or not entered into willingly. Most people who serve a god have made a conscious and willing choice to do so. In fact, at least in terms of the Christian God that I'm familiar with - I think I remember that was a defining factor of true service - that it be done willingly.
Slavery also connnotes work or service without adequate or fair repayment. I think most people who believe they are serving God also feel that they receive rewards (or adequate payment) while on earth, and if that is not the case, for example, those who are persecuted on earth for worshiping or serving a god, they tend to believe that eventually they will receive even greater rewards in an afterlife.
I am talking of a dimension whereby service is rendered solely on trust and without reservation, without expectation of reward or desire for license.
I wonder about your use of the word slave.
By your argument you seem to be saying that we are slaves to anything that limits us. Air- I need to breathe air. Am I a slave to air? Gravity -Everything is affected by gravity. Am I a slave to gravity because I can't choose to fall up? I don't think of myself as a slave to gravity, but it does limit my choices.
Are there people you trust? Why? Perhaps it's because you know them. You know who they are. You know what they say. Perhaps as each day dawns you learn a little more about their character. You've seen the good things they do. Perhaps you've seen the positive changes they've made in the lives of others. Perhaps you've felt the effect of their being by the good things they have brought into your life. Perhaps they have always been there for you- unwaivering in their love for you- even heroically saving you from death so that you go on living.
I don't know if trust in God is any different. Some people just seem to know. They feel it. Some want to learn more. Some find it by events that happen in their lives that change the way they have been looking at God.
I believe I've seen verses where the bible invites you to try it and see.
Quote:Auroell said: ...I believe I've seen verses where the bible invites you to try it and see.
Check some..
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"Jesus said- Come to me all who are weary and burdened and I'll give you rest...whoever comes to me I'll never turn away...knock and the door will be opened to you...you're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends"- (Matt 11:28/John 6:37/Matt 7:7/John 14:2)
"God isn't far from every one of us" (Acts 17:27/28 )
"Come near to God and he will come near to you" (James 4:8)
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