Morals

it is wrong to commit suicide.

because it is a selfish act where people are too concerned about their own problems than to worry about what disastrous effects are left for their loved ones to deal with. it makes them feel like failures, as if they are somehow unable to be decent friends or siblings or parents. there is no problem on earth that should drive somebody to kill themselves, or anybody else.

it is wrong to condemn suicide

Because it is a selfish act that dosn't take the fact that illness is very often involved into consideration. There are cases where the person who kills himself does so out of desperation because reality loses all coherency. So if one would condemn suicide, then one condemns mental illness.

You both seem to agree that it is wrong to act selfishly.

Why is it wrong to act selfishly?

Try it and you'll see. I am not talking about the reprecussions from those around you, but those from yourself to yourself. The hold things will get on you. The obsession that will inevitably fester in a self absorbed mind.

agrote, what is wrong to a person is what is conflicting with their morals. since, as you point out, we all have different morals, I cannot therefore state my morals in terms of what is right and wrong unless it is understood that they only apply to myself.

So, according to my morals,

- it is not wrong to commit suicide, because our lives are our own responsibilities

- it is wrong to condemn suicide, because anyone who committed suicide had a reason that was important enough for them to make it the option of least suffering, and it would be selfish to consider your own suffering over their loss as more important than that person's suffering (agreeing with cyracuz)

- it is wrong to take pleasure in the pain of others

- it is wrong to cause undue suffering to others

- it is wrong to neglect the suffering of others

- it is wrong to steal from those who will likely notice and suffer as a result of being stolen from

- it is not wrong to steal from those who will not notice, or if the personal need is more serious than the superficial concept of "ownership," although the consequences are still there

- it is wrong to lie about one's actions unless lying is believed to be the only way to spare someone suffering

- it is wrong to not hold your piece when nobody wants to hear what you have to say and will be hurt by the truthful things you have to say, and they have no need or benefit from the things you would say

- it is wrong to imprison people indefinitely or for an unknown extended period

- it is not wrong to kill someone who has repeatedly killed others without provocation

I get the impression that you do not deal in absolutes when it comes to morality. I find that agreable.

Yes. It's very difficult to translate morals into a set of definite rules. I think that's because our conception of morality is really no different from any other emotion; we consider what is immoral to be those things that trigger the "immorality" emotion. We can try our best to find patterns in what causes this emotion in ourselves personally, but we don't really know what causes it. I think people can train or be trained so that their morals are more absolute, for instance by religious preaching, but this artificial influence does not really represent us.

I think you are right. Interesting your idea that "we consider what is immoral to be those things that trigger the "immorality" emotion".

I guess I agree that morals is primarily an emotionally based issue, but it is governed to some extent by intellect.

You are assuming that it is wrong to inflict suffering upon yourself, aren't you?

Why is it wrong to make yourself suffer?

You seem to agree with what stuh505 has said, so perhaps you don't believe that it is objectively wrong to cause yourself to suffer. perhaps your answer will be something like, "because causing myself to suffer triggers my "immorality" emotion, and this leads be to believe that it is wrong to do things which will cause me to suffer."

Well, the thing that makes me think it is wrong to inflict suffering upon myself is... sanity. :wink:

But sometimes I do make choices that will lead to pain for myself. Sometimes that is the lesser of "evils".

Do you believe that it is objectively wrong to inflict suffering upon oneself? Are you implying that your sanity allows you to have knowledge of this objective fact, that it is wrong to cause yourself to suffer?

Or do you believe that the wrongness of masochism is contingent upon your desire to not suffer? Are you implying that sane people don't want to suffer, and that is why it is wrong for those people to cause themselves to suffer... but insane people perhaps don't have the desire to not suffer, and for them it is not necessarily wrong to be masochistic?

I believe that it is wrong to inflict suffering upone oneself for the sake of suffering alone. Many endure great pains to obtain what they see as a greater benefit.

Another thing is that we rarely know what is good for us and bad for us anyway, before we experience it.

Okay. I will edit my questions then...

Do you believe that it is objectively wrong to inflict suffering upon oneself for the sake of suffering alone? Were you implying that your sanity allows you to have knowledge of this objective fact, that it is wrong to cause yourself to suffer just for the sake of it?

Or do you believe that the wrongness of masochism is contingent upon your desire to not suffer for the sake of suffering alone? Were you implying that sane people don't want to suffer just for the sake of it, and that is why it is wrong for those people to cause themselves to suffer... but insane people perhaps don't have the desire to not suffer for the sake of it, and for them it is not necessarily wrong to be masochistic?

Masochism is not a matter of suffering. It is a matter of obtaining pleasure through pain. I don't understand it, but it is not associated with madness that I know of.

Cutting you own writst, for instance, is.

But nothing is objectively wrong. It is not beneficial to me to cause myself suffering for no reason, so I try to avoid it as best I can. I don't think I have a more specific answer than that.

So you don't actually think it is wrong to inflict meaningless suffering on yourself. You just think it is not beneficial. Right?

Well, I don't really prescribe to the right and wrong angle except in retrospect. I can evaluate actions after they are over in terms of what was right and what was wrong, what was good and bad. This I can apply for future reference, but it is no indication that the result will be the same, even if the actions are identical.

So to answer your question:
I think it is wrong to inflict meaningless suffering on myself, because prior experience has taught me that it is unbeneficial.

But in a way all experience is beneficial, and no hurt entirely without gain, so my opinion in this matter applies to my intention and expectation, not to the actual event and outcome.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... you're saying that when you say some action causing suffering to yourself is wrong, this is based on your intention to not suffer, right? Or something like that. So it is not that such behaviour is (in retrospect) wrong in-itself, but just that it conflicts/conflicted with your desires and intentions. Or am I reading too much into what you just said?

No, that's about right.

So my answer to this question..



...is that it is wrong because I do not desire suffering.

But I only know that because I've known a little pain.

Implying that anything you desire is right, and anything you do not desire is wrong?

By the way man you need a new icon (sorry).